how i install future boxes/ fusions/ lockboxes

sdrepairman · October 20, 2011, 7:31pm

so this is the way that i was taught to install most boxes, it takes alittle bit of work to get your all your different degree sticks but is a wonderful tool, especially if your doing production. note in this thread i will be installing future boxes

the first thing is to rout out the board and place the box in the board with the fin inserted then i have little bridge that i have made that i place in the center of the board then i take my protractor and measure my desired fin angle( i have made a couple of different bridges to account for measuring the trailer fins and for boards with alot of concave or vee in them)

once you get the angle that you want you put the protractor up to a piece of wood and draw that angle on the wood and cut it to that angle

these are a couple cut out at 7 and 5 degrees

ok so once you get all you angle sticks and bridges made you route out the board then place the boxes in the board to double check that everything fits right, if ever thing looks good then the next thing i do is use the flange part of the box and make little insertions in the route where the side grooves were made, this helps you adjust the box when installing and helps with strength

once ever thing is is prepped then i put tape over the boxes then put some cabocil in all the routes and use the degree stick to push the boxes down in the route and force the excess cabocil out

once all the boxes are set to the angle you want then use a squeegee and go over the boxes with the excess cabocil and fill in any void and make as clean as possible then your done

hope ive explained this properly and hope this helps everyone out there

Bud · October 20, 2011, 8:37pm

Nice work! But it sure looks like Fusions not Futures in the first 3 pictures

Instead of first taping the box slots, I use dummy fins to adjust cant while the fin box is setting up in the rout, then tape up the slots prior to lamination. Just gotta be careful when pushing the boxes in and moving the resin around the openings

I’ve found this 12" plastic angle finder works really well for a fin to fin bridge over most concaves

http://www.amazon.com/Quint-Measuring-Systems-True-Angle/dp/B0002EXEXY/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1319141918&sr=1-1

What is the benefit to using resin w/cabosil to set the boxes?

paulr · October 20, 2011, 8:45pm

Thanks for explaining your technique, but I thought Futures and Fusions were meant to be installed under the glass. To me, it looks likes you’re installing them afterwards?

sdrepairman · October 20, 2011, 8:54pm

i didnt have any pics of setting up the degree sticks so i just took some random ones but all the pics of the futures was done before laminating

IMHO i feel that using the cabocil helps with the weight and strength

a2tall · October 20, 2011, 9:52pm

You can install fusions and futures after lam, this is done with color work alot; also in these pictures it does look like it is pre lam on a blank

kensurf · October 20, 2011, 11:41pm

that board is not glassed

well the first board shown was but that was for getting angles

and they were different box's

I would just use a fin and a sliding angle gizmo

nice install though

resinhead · October 22, 2011, 12:50am

Ok take this for what it's worth...and not trying to start a "bitch at you and your install thread". You are a really knowlegable guy and you have a lot to share here. We all appriciate your input and your expertise.

But here's my take, and a take from another guy that knows a lot more about this than me. Cabosil is a no, no in fin box installation. Why..Well, cabosil ads no strength, and cabosil makes epoxy & resin brittle. So when the box flexes it doesnt give as much as it could (this is really apparent with epoxy), lack of flex will breaks the bond to the bottom layer of foam and start the.delam process. Once the delam occurs, the box slightly teacup in its hole and the bond to the board is opened for water intrusion. ( this will happen with all box set ups..ProBox, Future, Fision, etc. This can be off set by adding a layer of glass to the bottom of the hole prior to install. But the main culprit is additives to the resin or epoxy. In epoxy the exception..and a great thing is that adding color will give even a bit more flex, while staying strong and tight.

Ok I'll crawl back under my rock.

GregTate · October 22, 2011, 1:17am

great, SD, thanks for putting that up for us.

a2tall · October 22, 2011, 1:23am

Resinhead thanks for that info. I knew cabosil has no strengthing properties but I never knew it effected flex so much. I don’t use it in my instals anyway but it’s good to know that info. Thanks you

orfin · October 22, 2011, 3:24am

I was taught to do my box installs while laminating. I would poor some off into a small cup and ad cabosil. The only positive I saw is that it blends the white between the box and the board, purely cosmetic. I hade no idea about the flex properties or the lack there of. Makes me think twice about using it.

grasshopper · October 22, 2011, 4:39pm

wow you really put a lot of extra work/gadgets into this. just put some fins in the boxes and push em into the hole. you have a little bit of wiggle room to get the toe in and cant even. i do it by sight. i guess your method you can go on to laminating right away (instead of needing to wait till the resin is hard to take out the fins) so that is a good benefit in a production setting or if you need to push through a board really fast. thanks for putting this up! always interesting to see how others do it.

another thing i like to do is put minimal resin in the hole so none of it overflows up onto the bottom. still wet out all the foam in the cavity but not so much to volcano up when setting the boxes. any gaps will get filled during the laminating stage (lift up the cloth and pour resin directly over the boxes then pull cloth back over). for what its worth…million ways to skin a cat…

sdrepairman · October 22, 2011, 5:21pm

hey resin head thanks for the tip about the flex, ill have to start trying that out

i think its kinda funny that i was always told to do it with cabocil when i worked at the factory, think of it, thousands of boards with the fins installed just like that

but cuirious so do you just use staight resin or resin and cloth? i always like to learn another way to skin a cat

oh and has anyone had any problems with epoxy and having the resin just soak up into the foam, seems like that might happen

DMP · October 22, 2011, 5:54pm

Thanks for taking the time to take pictures and post your tricks. I use the dummy fin eye ball technique. More concerned about getting them even side to side and the center fin straight in relation to the entire board. The center fin especially is tricky on a thruster. Prior I install all boxes with fins and check alignment.

I use a small dixie cup for box installs. On poly I just go to 2 oz.s for a thruster set to make mixing catalyst easier but epoxy it’s 44 grams mixed or 15 grams per 3/4" box 12 grams for a 1/2".

Pour a small amount in the hole, wet the flange with my finger and install the box and dummy fin in the hole. Once the box is close to set I go back and fill the rest of the resin in the cup into the small resin breather holes to finish filling the route.

For poly this gets done all at one time. All three or four or whatever at once. For epoxy I use Fiberglass Hi’s 3 minute epoxy. Its really more like 30 secs. Thats the reason for the small amounts. You really only have time for one box at a time. Nice thing is you can tape over the box holes and start laminating immediately. The only word of caution is I found the hard way you have to use a scale on the small amounts with epoxy. Too easy to get it wrong and have the resin not harden completely. But well worth not worrying about exotherm and melted foam.

resinhead · October 23, 2011, 2:59pm

Hi SD,

The biggest issue i have had with epoxy is it's therming and potentially melting the eps foam. Putting a layer of glass in the bottom keeps the therming down, and the glass keeps the epoxy from draining ito the foam. I've found that depending on the density of the eps and bead size the epoxy will soak into the foam about 1/8 to 1/4 inch, just enough to get a real good bond to the foam.

I use straight epoxy of resin with color. I think one of the reason production shops use addtitves is because it sands down faster and therefore you have less heat up and blow outs. Another reason is that the average board isn't expected to live more than 6-12 months before it turns into a golfballed, heal dented, ding machine with it's double 4 oz glass job. Another, If you surf places like the cliffs or the reefs then your expected to loose fins from time to time.

I'd say that if your trying to put something special together for someone, I'd use straight goop.

Thanks for posting up the jig. looks like a great gizmo.

resinhead · October 23, 2011, 3:07pm

Another thing to keep down the therming is to put ziploc bags of ice under the fin holes on the deck side. Then do the epoxy fin set. ice will slow down the chain reaction and make the epoxy more peanut buttery. let it sit cold for 40 mins or so then pull the bags out.

Yeah I had a miss mix on a back fin box the other day...It sat for 36 hours in a salt water taffy consistency stage. I finally got a pair of pliers and yanked it out. I had to wash the box hole out with DA..wash the fin box with DA..and reset. Fricking mess. Talking about a vaaccum vapor lock trying to pull that thing out.

sdrepairman · October 23, 2011, 5:53pm

thats funny

i appreciate all the info

like i said ill have to give your guys way a shot and see how they come out

this is what i love about this place your always learnig some thing new

girvin · October 23, 2011, 9:49pm

I have to agree about cabosil. No flex and very brittle i only use it for very shallow cosmetic dings. I also worked in production just for a little while before they had management issues but we did strait resin on our poly boards and strait epoxy with slow cure on our eps. I do like the glass idea for eps though…

mako224 · October 23, 2011, 10:11pm

I never used cabisil. I’ve always used microfibers.

resinhead · October 25, 2011, 8:24pm

Mako,

for me..adding anything to the goop just increases the chance of bubbles in the pour. The bottom cloth layer acts in the same way as micro fibers for strength, but gives an added therm buffer on EPS foam. Also the straight goop makes a really clean, bubble free install....no little micro bubbles in the pour.