Putty the lip smooth?
It sounds like your glass job is getting so thick it will negate the biaxial cloth advantage. Have you thought about going to 3# EPS and a thicker stringer? When you need to go beyond 6/4x6/6, it may be time to rethink the core. Just a thought.
Thanks for the replys -
Lemat - your site was good, and I don’t even read French… Ha!
ozzy - The putty is just a simple way to smooth out any lip that’s there - esp. at the ends. I think in part it’s my lazyness… Much easier to me to hit the high spots, and putty the low, compared to trying to sand it smooth and not cut into the foam. I suppose I could think about heavier foam, but 2# eps is the heaviest that is readily available, or I use xps some times too. It may be worth asking about 3# eps… I’m not sold on the post production benefits of a stringer, but it helps during shaping. Part of the reason I started with a heavy glass job was simply to add weight to a 9’3" gun - it was only after having my leash break and the board slammed into the reef that I realized how much benefit there was. From what I understand, even with three layers of glass in the usual orientation, the 45/45 will still provide benefit. From what I’ve heard, I’d love to try some “inegra” some day - but it’s not like I have issues with heel dents… Ha!
Hi TaylorO,
your northern secret is safe with me. From some picks I’ve seen, that juice is fairly concentrated! a mate lives up there and surfs a place with the same name as a popular south cal break. He said a lot of guys were painting their boards black and white on the bottom so scare off sharks? Cool idea, I wear suncream even on my booties cause fishos never like it on their bait…
Are your boards pigmented white so you can’t see the Cab o sil mix? You got lemats 20 oz on the rail sorted and your snapping 'em with and without stringers. One topic going round Sways at the mo, and with Redboards here, is that a domed deck adds strength to the ‘Stringers’ on the rails. Maybe that’s a way to increase snapping resistance with the same layup?( Good way to get a litle more rocker in the rail to if ya need it). I tried innegra. 2oz. Suppliers claimed it was as resin hungry as 6 oz regular, which it was. I lammed up 6 on top of it (and on the bottom) and it stands up to front foot pummeling great but heel and toe squashes at the rear foot are looking ugly as ever. (it is my favourite board) But subsequent layups have been 4 or 6oz full deck patch + 4x4 over lays on the deck lapping the rails, layed as diagonally opposing each other as possible + 4 or 6 oz bottom. This way the lam has three layers on the rail and three on the deck. Max weight of 14 on the rail for stringered boards + 14 on the deck and 14+carbon on stringerless . No snappages as yet. But we’re in the middle of the East coast summer mush burger season.
Been doing this for last 10 boards. Heel and toe marks are a thing of the past. and easily as strong as innegra for heaps less hassle. Innegra Is a bitch when you sand through a bit of the top lam… But because I’m paranoid, i’m putting those trendy carbon stripes over the fin to deck connections (they also hide the hole saw marks) Also, the innegra board creased! It was a heaving lip but…and it hit the bottom of the board (where the concave is), which supports some swaylockers Dome The Deck stance to beat the breakage.
Hey Redboards , can you let us know how the diagonals and 12 oz rails hold up? Also 'glued on stringers" is this Wood or hardened foam? and perimeter stringers - Carbon…?
Cheers
Hey colourup - Haven’t seen anyone with the “anti-shark” paint job, but then again I do not see that many board, save on the tops of cars, and they usually are in board bags. (Another “benefit” of the heavy glass jobs… "Board bag, I don’t need no stinking board bag…)
Wild guess, but your mate wouldn’t happen to be Andrew the grain professor??? He’s the only guy I’ve met from down under, and he comes to town, which shares the same name as a So.Cal. town…
From what you write, I many never bother with the inegra…
As for the domed deck, yes I hear and understand the structural features, but I prefer to paddle and ride slightly concave deck in the belly (another compound curve - plus my step rails and deck channels add more.), and a flat tail under my foot.
The stringer aspect is interesting - as several folks have pointed out over the years, from an engineering stand point it sounds like the stringer doesn’t add much strength… But, I did have a board crack in half near the nose, and it stopped at the stringer, and what I found more enlightening was the crack also stopped at the deck channel…
I think Lemat answered the question. Thanks Lemat for a detailed answer. I think the consensus for heavier EPS (i.e. min of over 1.5lb) has more to do with delam issues. But everyone I’ve spoken to who does engineering work says the same thing - the core is pretty immaterial - it’s the skins.
And thanks for the stringerless advice. I think the problem we have is in building semicircular (sort-of) section rails. The form does is prone to buckling when bent. Now if we built the rails with circular (ellipsoid) cross section, then we could really play with flex characteristics and retain strength (he says flexing his favourite fishing rod).
TaylorO, I think the flex feel comes from the light construction. I’m not claiming some “slingshot” effect from flex - never felt it, but when you crack the lip or land a drop, there’s a certain amount of “give” that’s not there in a solidly constructed board. Problem is, there’s sometimes too much give 
So if the "problem is there's sometimes too much give" and you've never felt the "slingshot" effect why bother with all the weird construction techniques, Home Depot foam and no stringers. If you can't "feel" the differance and all you guys seem to be doing is snapping these oddball boards why bother with your inventive and "cutting edge" techniques. Go learn to shape and glass first, then build yourself a real surfboard and get out there and enjoy it.
Haha McDing, Classic to have some flag waving for the ‘relic’ construction method which is one of the main reasons we’re here and that Sways is so popular. You are a funny guy :P rsrsrsrsrsrssrs See you at D’Arcys’ But I have to concur that the flexy slingshot effect of the fire wire seemed very over rated to me but the ‘give’ for late drops was definitely a plus.
TaylorO, awesome work on the bag save, they are expensive for sure, but i’m a gear junky so ‘bring em on’ & bag em up with spare fins, leashes, combs, wax, radios, ipodsm, kitchen sinks, blah.
Interesting about the nose snap to the stinger, ie stringer flexes more than the rail? I think it depends on the ‘make up’ of the stringer. I’ve seen them badly broken and yet rails still good. I’ve also seen what happened to yours. But not with the deck channels. Are they like the ones ‘Stretch’ uses? Man your decks sound intricate. YOu definitely need to stop snapping them. Maybe the two stringered blanks (ie - closer the rails) would be better? Tricky to shape but…
Shaping with a centre stringer is definitely easier if your excacting a specific shape or reproduction but the joys of shaping a stringerless and ‘making it look right’ is a very cool feeling. it’s like Robert Smith singing ‘So What’. Waves aren’t square, ankles aren’t hinged in the middle of your feet so who cares? Stringerless foam construction is definitely the best place to define a sick rail layup that can be used to bomb proof our stringered foam. I have faith, all in and one for all, that we’ll work out the next way that will be the standard for EPS boards that can take Oregon Style winter beatings year in year out. But my guess it involves cross directional layups and ‘perimeter’ stringers. I’ve also heard that too much resin in the lam results in a ‘fat’ lam which has less power to resist snappage, again I only heard it and if it’s the case then the vacum bag crew will have an advantage as they are saving resin by the bucket load.
Andrew sounds cool, but my mate, Mike, is a building inspector in the
town of the shared name, he’s yankee as bud and superbowl. (I prefer ‘Mickeys’ big mouth ‘grenades’, yeah!.)
Hey Redboards, I’m sorry I don’t understand your technical lingo m8. True. Is there some ‘laymans’ terms you can use to identify each of the specific genres of perimeter stringers you are mentioning? Sorry m8, i just haven’t been schooled up in these terms.
[quote="$1"]
I've had 3 stringerless EPS/epoxy done by a good laminator (because my laminating sucks) with 2x4oz full wrap rails and bamboo top deck. Snapped em all*. One I've snapped 3 times, another twice. Crap cloth? Maybe. But I'll be sticking to Sways advice in future to put at least 12 oz over the rails
* of course, them being 2" thick, with 1" rails (at 1" in), 23" wide and limited deck doming may have something to do with it - or maybe I should quit making those free fall takeoffs ;-)
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too stiff and they break faster than when they flex, remember Bert saying make it flex make it flex?
did you do a bamboo on top only?
Poly or EPS/Epoxy no matter. The industry leads the way not "backyarders". This isn't the seventy's. Break thrus happen but usually by individuals who have put in the time around the industry. That is unless someone steals their ideas or methods. Firewire, Surftech, Sunova etc. all got people thinking. But the novelty is wearing off. The stuff you guys are talking about is for the most part sloppy and a deadend.
For those of you who can handle an open positive discussion - Thanks…
Thanks---- I always try to be as open as I can.
Ah Lowel…
McDing, Dec 5 2005, california. look it up
McDing,
Cheers mate. Gotta break a few to know what the baseline is. Easy to build ‘em heavy and strong. Sub 5lb and strong is a bit more challenging. Surf a good sub 5lb in 4’ barrels and you’ll understand. I’m a hack eager to progress. I hang over the shoulder of my mentor, a 25 year industry veteran, whenever I can, but please do suggest ways that are not sloppy and deadend.
Colourup - my construction was inspired by the Timberflex thread (WMD Compsand -http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1029134 but the pics are gone). I cut 2" of rail off and laid up 12oz along the flat edge to glue the rails back on. We also tried wood stringers, but not on my boards. Grinding back the glass without gouging the foam was tricky, especiattly where my rails were under 1/2" thick.
Wouter - bamboo top only - top and bottom comes out too stiff for mid-range boards not designed for choppy waves. We’ve also done Innegra top and/or bottom, but find the bamboo good for impact resistance on top (better than multiple glass layers).
Hey Red - I comend you on your coolness…
Regarding your bamboo - Do you bag or hand lam?
I tried more extreme ways at getting flex, but to get it to be noticeable made for too weak of a board. What I was after - come around tight on turns and true in the pocket - I’ve been able to achieve with fins.
But I’ve not come close to those two glorious sessions on my buddies brother’s board - late 70’s progressive Oregon gun… 7’ range, not to wide, narrow tail, low rocker single fin… - Turned out it was coming off the bottom so well, then holding in the barrels on those two consecutive day because… It was cracked in half on the bottom about 2’ from the tail… Ha!
For what you are attempting to do comp sand deck and or bottom is your best bet. Although I don't understand why guys like yourself haven't tried PVC stringers or even just a glue line. Most of the time a good glue line is stronger that the foam. Sounds like you are onto it. But "puttying" rails as Taylor does is heavy and sloppy glassing compared to a good lap. I can shape and glass a stringered Poly blank with Poly resin and bring it in at five lbs or less. I don't necessasarily have a preferance for stiff as opposed to flex. In fact I think flex is over rated. It just depends on what you're after. But you can get there with todays modern conventional materials and methods.
Hey Redboards, thanks , gregs boards seem great and strong for 5lb. I wonder how they’re lasting? I’m also wondering if your bagging?
This may seem a stupid question, but do you cut the rails off after the top and bottom lams prior to 12 oz’ing? This is all new to me. sounds good but… I have some paulownia hanging around the shed…But wrapping it would take a lot of thin layers. To me, McDs’ PVC rail sounds worth a shot, Where can you get this stuff in Oz? Is the right glue for this application that slightly expanding white stuff that cabinet makers use under tension?, & have you got a 12oz lapped rail back from your laminator since?
My EPS 4x4x6 + full deck patch and carbon rails came out under 5 lb sans fins and no bagging. 5’8" x 18 1/2" x 2 1/4" . Viscous resin is the trick.
Hi McDing, maybe i am wrong and i don’t understand all with my bad english, but i thinck that the optimize in most big surfboards compagny is how they make the consumer happy to change board every 3 to 6 month. Really good commercial strategy… (or silly consummers ?).
My point of view is that with standard material PU/PE, you can make a really good reference product. With “exotic” material you can make a product with a better durability/weight ratio and similar flex characteristics. Just don’t use those materials in traditionnal way and don’t expect them to cost the same. The “standard” EPS/Epoxy 2lb foam with 2x4 top and 4 bottom is shit, but for 100$ than PU/PE its’ a really good product for the “standard commercial strategy”. But maybe i am wrong here too.
Red, you are right more skins are “strong” less foam play in final product. But ultra light eps have others problems: water intrusion and stability to temperature.
Stringer is good for: keep rocker in place, stiffening blank for shaping and glassing, extended life of a light laminate board.
A stringer cost much less than good fiber + resin…
Sorry for my frenglish
McDing. Thanks for your input. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
I bag bamboo on a rocker table. I’ve put 2oz cloth under the bamboo and use at least 2lb foam. The compound curves that the bamboo has to conform to necessitate vac bagging but ensure that rocker is held.
The rails were cut off the blank, then glued back on using epoxy+cloth, tough as nails glue (not recommended because you can’t sand it) and PVC glue (the best option).
I hope to produce a few new boards over the summer.
Cool Red, so this is definittely not Rail Laps 101. obviously without being there or seeing your published ‘how to’ dvd book at shapers I’m not going to attempt this. I’m guessing there is a pinline or a full rail pigment going on here? I’m amazed these snap even with only 4x4 on the laps.
The brisbane foam company has 1.5 lb foam that doesn’t need base coating or vents. this could compensate for your beefing up the the rail laps, no? Greg L stated that the lighter foam will save 1/4 lb weight so it would seem logical.
These rails sound so advanced I’m just waiting for the hollow ones filled with helium to come out.
Thanks guys