G’day leon.ulladulla ,
I sent you a pm.
Bob
Surffoils, hey man, cowboy here. (Longtime lurker/reader just starting to post) I’m building a mat, actually my second. The first one was cordura that turned out to not really be waterproof. Doh!!
I got some great light heat sealable nylon from Rocky Woods and it’s air and water tight but I can’t find MEK in any small quantities to clean it before I glue it up. Can I use Acetone to clean this up instead?
I’ll post up some pics when I get this thing together. And to any of y’all thinking of trying this, Do it, it doesn’t take too long and it’s not too tough as long as you’re patient. But isn’t that the main lesson of board building?
Hey Cowboy ! You’re the guy from the Hydrofoil SUP forum yes ??
You’ll notice the admin here is a lot less restrictive than over there.
The easiest prep fluid is to use the same as plumbers use for PVC pipes.
It’s about $5 for 500 ml. Clear, highly toxic.
Please post pics, I’m up for a mat chat.
Thanks man, I’ve got some of that. I’ll test some this week. I need to post up some build threads here too. This forum taught me a ton.
Mat threads don’t get a lot of comments but they’re interesting for the science of flexible hul Vs water.
Here’s some of my mats.
If it’s heat sealable you don’t need any glue. You can use an iron or a heat gun and a roller. I got some 200D and 40D from rocky woods and was pleased with the fabric.
For people not familiar with mats, the approved history is that George Greenough is the high priest of all things that Mat-ter because he did some great experimentation, videos and along with some other guys progressed mat design.
Things get murky post GG about who now holds the inflatable chalice but Dale Solomonson made some amazing design and materials progression but has retired.
These days there’s several mats that are mass produced and a few who make them individually for each customer.
No one knows who else is out there making mats or inflatable prone surfcraft but it’s a small market considering the popularity of mats prior to the invention of the boogie board in 1971.
Wow, 1971 sounds like so long ago.
Monkstar, I missed your post. I thought on the thread the heat seal stuff didn’t work. I’ll post up what I bought but cleaning with acetone seems to have gotten me a good seal on my test seam.
Surffoils, my buddy bought a commercial mat so we have two guys on mats here in LA. His is a Krypt and it’s pretty nice but you’ve shown me the way and I think mine is going to be pretty nice. I’ve seen a couple of other guys but never said hello. Hoping to scope out a couple of untouched waves that are unmakeable on a board. Thanks for sharing the info, I’m going to try to glue this up this weekend.
Greenough doesn’t make mats. My understanding is that his long term collaborator, Paul Gross (of 4GF mats) makes them and sends experimental models to Greenough, based on his specifications or Paul’s own ideas.
Brett - have the flexy bottom/rigid deck mats progressed at all?
Hi Bob, the rigid deck inflatables are probably the most unique craft to not be publicly seen but I did post a few pics a while ago.
I’m still working on finding the best way to make the flexible yet hard decks. The benefits are that with an inflatable hul” you get the speed and glide of a mat but the semi-rigid deck gives a positive control system.
Making mats involves understanding a few basics and then there’s a world of design to explore.
Oddly, mat people say there’s only one mat design.
Hello Brett,
Thanks. Keep me posted. If you prefer, e-mail me if there are developments.
Regards
Bob
That’s interesting that Paul Gross sends mats to GG.
Does GG ride them or review them ?
I didn’t have great luck with the acetone cleaning. I let things set for a few days but one of my ribs pulled loose pretty easily.
Wanted to clarify on the cleaner from plumbing supply. In the US all I can find is the purple stuff but that says it’s Primer.
Is this the cleaner you’re talking about?
(Won’t let me post a link so google Oatey Clear Cleaner)
I need to see if I can get to a real plumbing supply.
This happened to me with the mat in my avatar, ducked under one wave and the ribs ripped out. It happened when I used glue to make it, that’s why I went to heat sealable fabric. Any time you think you’re done building your mat, inflate it and lay on it on the ground with all your weight. Then you’ll know for sure. And yes, I couldn’t find the glue Surffoils suggested in the the States; another reason I went with heat sealable.
Thanks man. I found the glue but the cleaner has been a challenge. I’ll try to heat seal this and see what I get as well.
You need a ‘prep’ for plastic connections, the plastic on the inside of a mat is similar to white plastic plumbing pipe. In Australia we have a clear fluid cleaner prep that plumbers use to clean and prep the surfaces, I believe it removes the oxidised surface and slightly melts the plastic ready for connection.
The professional inflatable boat builders use a Product that has the same ingredient but the plumbers product is cheap as chips.
The glue needs to be the HH-66 that I’ve previously shown and it’s the same glue that the surf rescue inflatable boat builders use. It costs a fortune if you buy it from a Boat builder but it’s made in the US so get it there direct for peanuts.
The benefit of glueing is it’s complete versatility. The established way of heat sealing a mat involves lots of soldering irons attached to metal bars, measuring the temperatures and timing to ensure a complete seal each and every time. Damn slow unless you’re getting it done in Asia. The shape can only be the scope of metal bar shapes which is why mats are always straight sided rectangles with 90 degree Corners. That’s why mat makers insist that mats can only be that shape because they don’t have the capabilities to make different shapes.
Enter the Wide Workd of Reality and you can use the same system that surf rescue and life raft boat builders use with glue. Now you can make curved planshapes exploring the world of Possibilities of variable outlines, swallow tails, pintails, rigid hulls, and the most amazing ideas never offered by the standard mat makers.
It’s why the cottage industry of matmakers refuse to move out of the 70’s. There a lot to be explored Beyond The Rectangle…
http://forum.realsurf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27454
Yes that me as ULTIMATS.
A quick Google search using the search string, “HH-66 Vinyl Cement:”
https://www.amazon.com/HH-66-Vinyl-Cement-Glue-Brush/dp/B005LL2XBM
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LXRISL4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B01LXRISL4&pd_rd_wg=Foydo&pd_rd_r=1V05EGYKTQ8MQMAD7H3W&pd_rd_w=dj7vk
Used the Amazon zoom feature on the pictures.
Looks like HH-66 is manufactured by:
RH Products Co., Inc.
Action, MA 01720
ph: 978-897-8000
www.rhadhesives.com
In the States, most only use the purple primer when fitting PVC pipe. But I’m guessing Brett is using the cleaner? I’ve used the purple primer on PVC pipe but not the cleaner.
https://www.spadepot.com/PVC-Pro-Solvent-Cement-Kit-P9387C67.aspx?zmam=55673001&zmas=1&zmac=1&zmap=KT1010&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu7bY8Nj42AIVGrbACh2j3Ar9EAQYBSABEgLTtfD_BwE
Marsh Laboratories
2437 Waverly Avenue
Pittsburg, PA 15218-2626
ph: 412-271-3060
I’m guessing the Oatey Clear Cleaner is the basically the same:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-16-oz-PVC-Clear-Cleaner-307953/202329481?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-AllProducts|&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIorexp-D42AIVR7XACh3J2A1pEAQYASABEgKzZPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CP_VsKng-NgCFQayTwod-BYHeg
Looks like the Oatey Purple Primer does not contain any “methyl ethyl ketone” (MEK). The Oatey and Marsh PVC Cleaner contain only a small amount of MEK.
The HH-66 contains mostly (44%) methyl ethyl ketone (MEK).
https://www.nrs.com/global/msds/msds_hh-66-vinyl-cement-sds-2015.pdf
See the photo Brett posted earlier:
https://www.swaylocks.com/sites/default/files/image_693_0.jpg
See “4a. i)” in this photo Brett posted:
https://www.swaylocks.com/sites/default/files/image_692_0.jpg
https://www.swaylocks.com/comment/483875#comment-483875
My local rural hardware store carries methyl ethyl ketone in quart containers.
Maybe Brett can post the MSDS and/or active ingredients of the PVC cleaner he is using.
MEK
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-32-oz-Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone-MEK-Solvent-QME71/100210976
Toluene
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/toluene09-04133-6.php?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyqqZg_H42AIVgrfACh238wx-EAQYAiABEgJTc_D_BwE
There is no ‘cleaner’.
Just the prep. About $5.
And the glue. About $25.
If you get anything else test it by glueing a few small pieces together so that you don’t ruin a whole mat with the wrong product.
If you’ve got the right product and technique you’ll find the plastic skin tear away from the fabric before the fabric separates.
OzSeal Priming Fluid Clear:
95% MEK
http://athertonchemicals.com.au/pdf/Ozseal/msds/Ozseal%20Priming%20Fluid%20Clear.pdf
Klean Strip MEK (@ Home Depot):
99-100% MEK
HH-66
RH Products Co., Inc.
Action, MA 01720
ph: 978-897-8000
MEK
44%
Acetone
34%
Proprietary Component
14.1%
Toluene
7.9%
https://www.nrs.com/global/msds/msds_hh-66-vinyl-cement-sds-2015.pdf
1 Like
Surffoils,
I realise it’s been years since your last post but I just wanted to say a massive thank you for all your great info! I’m now on the hunt for materials and either glue or a iron to give it a go myself! Than you