I’ve got an old shortboard that I don’t ride anymore, paddles ok. G10 masts about $40 shipped to my door, ply another $20, plus FCS plugs and some epoxy another $50 or so…hmmmmmm.
You don’t need to use G-10 for your masts. I just did it because I know a vendor that sells their offcuts for $2/ pound and that was cheaper and easier than laying up a fiberglass panel of my own. And as fiberglass panels go that’s great stuff. As well, I already had a panel of aircraft ply sitting around because I use that to build fins, and because using ply lightens the panel a bit and it’s easier to foil (G10 is a real pain in the ass to foil).
If you wanted to do a fiberglass/plywood sandwich one way would be to glass one side of a plywood panel with several layers of 6oz, then sandwich that with another panel of ply so that the fiberglass acts as the spine and provides your halo. More fiberglass in the center = more halo, albeit also more weight.
I sand the ply panel to open up the wood, preseal with a cheater coat of resin, then when tacky I add the layers of fiberglass. For the masts in my pic I used a layer of light non-woven veil between the ply and the first layer of fiberglass in order to get the adhesion - that makes for a great bond. Personally, I only use epoxy for glassing, but it would probably work with PE resin, too.
Finished weight for all 4 masts (8 x 3 x 1/2) in that construction turned out at about 1.2 pounds. Solid G10 would have been a fair bit heavier.
Was going to use a .25" G10 panel to fit FCS plugs. I’d be open to using something different, but basically, I’m looking for least amount of time to fabricate. I can have G10 cut so all I need to do is cut the tabs and drill the holes. Not planning on foiling other than rounding the edges. I can buy a sheet of polypropylene, but it’s not really that much cheaper, would it be that much lighter? Definitely not interested in laying up a mast at this point.
For the foil I am planning on using whatever 3 ply I can find at Home Depot.
So many ideas in this thread, I’m not sure where to start. Still I’ve remembered where the 7 footer is. It broke and I put the 2 halves beneath the floor of my new shed as a surprise for whoever has to take it down one day!
Like the idea of making a fuselage for this foil. A project for next year.
Okay, here’s what I learned this morning.
First off, I’m looking for something for slow/weak/small swells, so for that I DON’T want a wing that’s significantly faster than the conditions. I want the WWI Sopwith Camel, not the F-16. I want it to come up on plane early and max out early and stability is way more important than agility.
My donor board was glassed heavy to get the glide and it’s got a fairly flat rocker through the middle, but it’s only 6-10 in length; so really a better length would probably be a foot longer than that - and I have a couple of those lying around too; so I may get to converting one of them if the proof of concept on the 6-10 works out. .
-
The wing doesn’t seem to affect paddling or duck diving at all, but then again I’m mindful to approach the wave directly. At an angle that might be a different story.
-
I think I have my placement too far back for what I’m trying to do, so I’m glad I used the Bahne boxes for the install because now I can move the wing around.
-
I used a wider spread for my mast placement, 10" apart in the front and 12" apart in the rears, but I also used a narrower mast at 3" wide x 8" deep.
-
The combination of narrower masts and wider spread still left the board feeling too loose (directionally) for what I’m trying to do. It actually felt pretty good on roll axis. I didn’t get it into trim enough to get a feel for the pitch axis.
-
The placement felt like the lift came on too late, meaning I needed more slope to the wave - and closer to the curl - in order to pick it up. Honestly, I didn’t feel like this setup aided me much in picking up the wave. It’s like the difference between picking the energy up at the last second for the late drop rather than early on for the long glide into the wave.
-
When I did get up I did feel the lift but without the directional stability it felt more similar to finless alaia than to a fin-stabilized glide.
-
Added to that I felt like I needed to be further back with my foot placement to trim the wing.
-
When I got back I saw the wing was starting to buckle at the leading edge of the front masts, just like what you guys were talking about earlier. The wing was going in one direction but the board was being pulled up - by me.
-
When I fell off I was mindful to go in the opposite direction, which was real easy to do. The board seemed to settle with the wing down.
-
The masts make carrying a wide board easy. But I wouldn’t do that with an FCS install.
So this is what I’m thinking so far. Somebody stop me if I’m going in the wrong direction.
As far as I know, Surffoils has done most of his R&D on bodyboards and his standups have been using shortboards, and the SUP guys are all trying to rip and surf off the tail.
I’m trying to surf a little differently than that, in conditions that neither a bodyboard nor a HPSB would be caught dead in, and I’m aiming at setting a rail and doing the long glide, not pivoting up and down the face. I’m from California and am surfing in longboard conditions using a more/less traditional style. I’m not surfing these in heavy or fast conditions; I have other boards for surfing.
There’s no good or bad to either approach, but they are different, so it’s only natural that I’m going to need to make some adjustments to what I’m doing.
The buckle near the leading edge and the last-second lift I felt both tell me we’re going in the right direction. Feeling the lack of stiffness from the multiple struts and the wider placement tells me that those aren’t getting in the way of what I’m trying to do.
Actually, it was the less-than-optimal directional stability that combined with my overall cautiousness that prompted me to not attempt any of the chest-high faces out there this morning. I’ll leave the risk taking to the risk takers. Today was about learning about this rig, not actually surfing it.
So my next step is to add a singlefin to the rear box, which the board was designed for. I’m reasonably confident it won’t be too much, and it will lock down the rear end to a more controllable feel on the takeoff. Since my struts are 8" deep the 9.5" fin I normally use on that type of board will remain engaged past any point at which the wing would breach, so I won’t have to sweat the unexpected drag that would occur if I was getting a 4" fin out of the water and the board dipped to re-engage it.
I’m also going to move the wing forward. The 10" spread of my front masts forced me to mount the wing with 4+" of leading edge in front of the masts. Plus, the install was so sturdy that I only used one screw per mast. None of that moved, but I’m now thinking that If I had spread the contact area a little more it wouldn’t have put so much stress on the leading edge. If I use a wider wing I can mount it further back on the strut so as to reduce the front lip by half - I need a 10" corner at the leading edge to do that.
Since I’m going to build a new wing anyway (which really only amounts to cutting, foiling and coating it with resin) and because my mast placement has the wider spread I’m going to go a couple inches wider in the front, and in order to maintain some curve I’m going to go wider in the back as well as a bit longer. Obviously this is increasing the size of the wing, possibly to excess for even the micro gliding thing I’m trying to do. I’m also considering going thicker on the wing panel to stiffen it up some since my masts are more spread out. I’m only at about 2# for the masts and wing, so using a heavier wing shouldn’t be much of a burden.
Comments and feedback and suggestions are encouraged.
I think you’re doing really well. It’s good to hear you explain it and I’m trying to see it in my head. On a smaller wave the lift isn’t very deep, your foil might be down in calm water. Do you have waves with longer slope ?
I had a few busted foils and struts at the beginning too.
If you,look at my setups I have only a few inches overhanging the front struts and quite narrow at the front.
I think you’ll find that the stability and direction will improve with speed, kinda like riding a bicycle.
I tried the fins on foils too and that helps.
Thanks for the encouragement. As I say, I’m trying to learn about the rig and its limitations before I attempt to surf it more actively. So today was all about look-and-see, not picking off waves from the outside.
I deliberately chose a less-than-optimal spot for my little excursion this morning because I don’t want to draw any attention to what I’m doing. One lady walking by stopped dead in her tracks and quizzed me on it for a couple minutes, but I doubt anyone who surfs actually saw what I was carrying because I was trying to take a stealth approach to the water.
On THIS forum everyone is a builder, so that’s an entirely different crowd than the retail consumers over on the other forums. They have less interest in learning and understanding than in simply surfing it for what it is.
As for the fin, I’m seeing more utility for that in the transition/take-off phase. I could possibly get more directional stability from using wider masts in the rear. Think about a 6" wide mast in the rears. .With the rear box placement I used that puts the trailing edge of the rear fins at 3.25" from the rail if I move them all the way back in the box. If I ran a wider mast back there I might even consider an asymmetric foil.
We haven’t even gotten to the point yet of discussing a wavegrinder type cut on the masts, or the tubercules he’s developing.
It’s just as you say about Sways, for better or worse people here like to build stuff.
All your ideas sound good, I only went in one direction.
My foils were completely ignored by every other foil designer because they Are original designs. But anyone can think up a foil design and make it. There’s a world of foil design and every aspect to explore.
I actually started out trying to have no struts and suspend the foil using wire fishing trace !
@ gdaddy
Foil size (surface area) affects the speed needed for lift.
Take-off speed needed will be determined by the shoreward speed of the wave.
I think your late take-offs may be more a function of board length.
What length board would you use for early take offs in the waves you were testing your HF in?
EDIT:
You could use a foam core to make your foil thickner and stiffer (a compsand foil).
The 26" wing in 1/8" 3-ply weighs about 1.3# (527 grams) (not counting resin), and has ~342" in surface area. I’m going for more rigidity because I’ve got my points of contact spread way out at the corners and atop smaller masts. I think I’d actually have to go even thicker with a compsand and I’d have to glass it.
I anticipate cycling through several setups, so cheap/fast > any weight savings. The donor board I’m using is much heavier than a stringerless EPS would be in this size, and honestly that weight isn’t my problem. I don’t surf just one kind of board so I’m not stuck in a rut. I can catch waves on a heavy board and i can catch waves on a shorter length. I just have to adjust my approach and timing.
I have an 8ft singlefin that I use in lieu of a longboard, and I can generally keep up with 70% or 80% of the longboarders on any given day in terms of wavecount. It’s pretty easy to control, so I might aim for that length in an HF glider application. I really don’t even need to “fly”; I just want to surf the swell.
Nor do I think the wave size was my primary problem - I was paddling on unbroken 3-4ft faces, which is bigger than what I intend for the design. I was seeking the feel prior to having to commit to surfing it. I did catch breaking waves, which was not in my original game plan for today, and the board seemed to paddle like it always does.
My thinking at this point is that the combination of longer chord with the lower-efficiency lifting wing is just the ticket for my paper airplane. Bear in mind that I’m trying to get the wing to do all the work, and I’m trying to stay completely away from all the surfers in the lineup. Once I figure out where lies the outer limits for control I’ll start adding in more curve to the template and reducing surface area for control. Hopefully by retaining as much length in the wing as I can control. The “donut hole” might be just the trick for that.
I saw a guy paddling an alaia out in the lineup this morning, and my first thought was to wonder if it would make a good shape for what I’m trying to do.
From the start Ive had a couple of moments when the board felt “finless”, as gdaddy also noted in his test.
Had an old kiteboard around so have taken one fin and added it to the foil with the thought that maybe it could assist?
Haven’t had a real go yet, but on a quick session spent my time tipping over sideways just after take off.
I think changing the foil of the struts would be much more promising. You have a huge area in the same orientation as the fin you added, so I think small improvements to the foil of the struts will have a huge impact compared to the little fin. And it will likely reduce drag.
I’d try to attach some paddle-pop sticks to each side of the struts about 1/3rd back from the leading edge and then wrap it up with duct tape.
Haven’t finished mine yet, but I’m curious to know if you have already tried making a 3d foil like a mini surfboard for hydrodynamics.
Wondering if 10mm HDPE or UHMWPE would be suitable for the struts. Too flexible? Any suggestions?
Here’s one of my designs from last year, it’s the basic shape that I’m still riding.
The central body is foiled, it gives stability because of its length and width, buoyancy because its glassed foam and lift because of the foil.
The 4 wingtips give it pitch stability yet in a turn the tips fail but give hold. Overall it rides easily like a single unit.
The best thing with a thicker body is that less struts are needed.
That looks fun. How many struts do you run with that shape?
The more struts the less secure they can be, that’s why I previously went with 4 struts spread out across the hull and FCS plugs. And that system is perfectly stable for thousands of waves.
Now I’m down to 2 struts because the foil base is still ply. But it could be done with a single strut and a Tuttle box but that would require me following someone else’s idea and that’s clearly not on the cards…
I’m looking at Hucks Primitive Fin system as a possibility.
I have envy of the guys with one screw to attach the mast to board, but suspect the 4 bolt plate on my foil gives a lot more tolerance for design and build imperfections as well as being stronger and less likely to break a board… but eventually, one bolt to the board, one bolt to the foil is the goal.
Sure the end game is to have gone thru the evolutionary process of design working out what does and doesn’t matter, removing superfluous touches, narrowing it down to an average and then refining it into specialised versions with some aesthetic appeal.
From the AirChair came the flat no foil low aspect foil thats now morphed into a high aspect highly foiled surfing system thats needlessly complex to make and very pitch sensitive to ride.
I think it’s the belief that if it ‘flies’ it needs to look like a plane but they’re slowly shortening the mast length, lowering the aspect and less foil and getting back to the Air Chair design.
You need to utilise every part so once they realise the fuselage can be part of the foil then they’re on the right course.