Hydrofoils and Lift

lennox76,

I don't think anyone is doubting how awesome Dan's boards are.  Just by looking at them, I can tell that they would suit me quite well !  I'd buy one.

 

But still, no one has explained, to my degree of satisfaction, how these “equations” guided Dan’s hands in shaping that board.  Mtb has done a phenomonal job at explaining planning mechanics.  But they seem to apply equally to all performance boards and at no point did Mtb say “…and that’s why Dan designs his boards this way.”

I don’t think we need to defend Dan.  He’s seems like a great guy, awesome surfer, good story…  I just want to know how the equations INFLUENCE the shape.  It just so happens that Dan is the first person to introduce these equations to me and my knee jerk reaction is always skeptical and inquisitive.

Now…I’m gonna re-read MTB’s posts and come back with some fire.  Hey MTB! you don’t mind my inquistions, do you?  btw, I’m lovin your posts.

Again, no one is really doubting the high performance of his designs.

But do you know how DT has used the "equation" to design his surfboards?

What is it about the relationship between the "equation" and his surfboards that makes it so unique?

PS - it would seem from your "meaningless" comment that you have never practiced engineering work. Velocity V and Density P can be assumed to be constant for the sake of analysis. These types of assumptions is common practice in practical engineering work.

I could give DT some good advice, but I'll save it for later. 

 

 

Hey Dave…don’t get your gander up mate.

Can’t quite see the connection between engineering and high perf surfboards.

And whilst the assumptions may be valid for an essentially steady state system or piece of mechanics it clearly doesn’t hold true for surfboards and waves.

Is it necessary to answer the question “what is about the relationship between the “equation” and his surfboards that makes it so unique?” to see what is happening.

No.

Science is full to the brim of examples where the theoretical understanding lagged behind the empirical and practical.

I’d say the equations influence Dan on a deep intuitive level that would probably make an engineer feel quite ill.

I’m sure if he spent the next few years at college he might be able to work it out …theoretically…but I’d say he’ll probably progress faster going surfing and ocassionally garbling the odd equation.

According to MTB (who I believe has spent decades doing this type of research), variable P (often referred to as "rho") in the equation stands for density, not pressure. V sub2 is supposed to be V squared. The description following the equation on the website is full of typos and mispellings. I seriously doubt he has ever set foot inside a college level class.

I saw the youtube video where he attempts to describe his design phylosophy. I did feel "ill", but not for the reason you're thinking.

I think he may have a very keen understanding of how surfboards work and how to use that understanding to make better surfboards. Many/some of us do.

But it seems evident to me that he has very little understanding of engineering mathematics and unless he is willing to attend an accredited engineering college and earn it the HARD WAY, he really should stop pretending. Its questionable at best and embarrasing at worst. 

The HARD WAY....

Most people have no real idea how difficult it is to succesfully earn an engineering degree. Lots of people try and fail. The math kills most of them. Perhaps if he tried he would have a much better understanding and RESPECT for those who have and maybe he wouldn't be so loose with his of use of "engineering". There is a reason you get a diploma at the end. It's to show proof that you EARNED IT, you put in the LONG HARD HOURS, the late nights, the week-long headaches during finals week....and that now, you're not faking it.

Now that we have our individual opinions out of the way, maybe we can objectively discuss the key design elements that makes his boards so unique and special, of course with Benjamin's approval, it's his thread. I believe he asked a very good question last time, carry on.  

 

How about between a F1 race vehicle and a Model T?

Don’t confuse “steady-state” with “no motion”. The graphics pesented
earlier represent a common case (a surfer racing across the face of a
wave being chased by the advancing curl). Also it is common practice (and frequently easier) to compute the steady state conditions, then perturb the the simulation conditions to assess situations involving non-steady conditions (e.g. a bottom turn).

Qualitatively, no. Quantatively, probably yes. I was always taught that one doesn’t really understand anything until one is able to quantatively predict the Cause and Effect relationship. 

Forget the garbled odd equation (I think that indirectly that’s probably Simmon’s fault).

I’m guessing that the reason that he has near parallel rails is that Lindsay Lord states that geometric configuration results in the most efficient (least accompanying drag) wetted outline. Whether that is true or not when surfing on the face of a wave remains to be seen. Normal water craft operate on essentially horizontal, flat water. A surfboard is planing on a curved sea surface whose radius of curvature can be comparable to the dimensions of the surfboard. Moreover, the situation is not symmetric (racing across the face of a wave results in more of a triangular wetted area). Then to further complicate things, the degree of curvature and the strength of the flow past the board is commonly different between the two ends of the board.

He indicates that the rails are not actually parallel, but rather the width of the board gradually diminishes down the length of most of the board. I’m guessing that he chose to do the latter after concluding that would cause the speed of the flow to gradually increase down the length of the board (by reducing some unspecified area). The consequence, he erroneously states, is that the increased speed means increased pressure, and hence more lift (Bernoulli’s equation says the opposite).

 

 

Science and surfboards just don't go together, in my non important, uneducated ( i don't have a degree, so im just a dumb arse who is not worthy of having a complex thought apparently ) opinion.

How boring would surfboards be if you could "calculate" a good board?.

 

[quote="$1"]

Most people have no real idea how difficult it is to succesfully earn an engineering degree. Lots of people try and fail. The math kills most of them. Perhaps if he tried he would have a much better understanding and RESPECT for those who have and maybe he wouldn't be so loose with his of use of "engineering". There is a reason you get a diploma at the end. It's to show proof that you EARNED IT, you put in the LONG HARD HOURS, the late nights, the week-long headaches during finals week....and that now, you're not faking it.

Now that we have our individual opinions out of the way, maybe we can objectively discuss the key design elements that makes his boards so unique and special, of course with Benjamin's approval, it's his thread. I believe he asked a very good question last time, carry on.  

  [/quote]

One of my degrees was Physics.  Physics is not engineering, but I know what you mean about the complicated math, and the long hard hours.  Here is one of my favorite quotes:

The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know. -- Socrates

I personally think the best way to design a good surfboard is by using the scientific method.  First you come up with a hypothesis.  For example, "I think that a board with characteristic x will surf better than my default board y."  Then you test the hypothesis in as much of a controlled environment as possible.  Try surfing boards x and y in similar wave conditions, and see which one is better.  Obviously, there are countless configurations to do this sort of trial an error analysis.  Surfboard shapers do this sort of thing do all the time.  In fact, airplane designers, and boat designers do the same thing as well.  After doing several tests you may begin to see a pattern emerging.  When this happens it may make sense to come up with some quantitative method that people can use as a "rule of thumb."  I say rule of thumb, because you obviously can't look at every possible configuration.  Mathematical equations are just ways for us to make simple relationships.  When you get into the realm of fluid dynamics, and non laminar flows then all you can make are crude simplistic approximations anyway. 


I like the metric that Benjamin came up with -- where he finds the "natural resonant frequency."  That is a classic rule of thumb metric.  It will be interesting to see if it gets some wider usage.

The Lindsay Lord book, that Simmons referenced, had a bunch of equations; but it was really just about presenting experimental observations.  There are a bunch of pictures showing sleds of varying shapes being towed along the surface of the water.  They then tried to explain why some shapes worked better than others.  Simmons was able to come up with some rules of thumb, based upon his readings, and applied them to his surfboard designs.
I think that some people have expressed resentment on this thread because they don't have math backgrounds, and feel that they can experiment just fine without doing any math.  I agree that you don't need to know advanced mathematics to come up with a great board design.  I think the main reason why the technical folks on this thread (and others) are throwing so many equations around is because MATH REALLY IS FUN!

I'm one of those trial and error guys. Keep trying to make the better board, fins, whatever. Minus the things that didn't work, plus the things that did. Mathematical, but simple.

 

I came across a small paperback book years ago called 'Shape and Flow'. Couldn't tell you the author, but it was a simple scientific book explaining things, and it gave me a new insight into the technical, or mathematical, equations that affect what I was doing. Bernouli, Reynolds, boundary layers, surface tension, shapes, foils, etc.

 

With that (little bit) better understanding my boards and fins improved, performed better. Still had to trial and error, but heading in a much more refined direction.

 

Doesn't mean an engineer can design a better board, but certainly doesn't mean they can't. Doesn't mean an uneducated board designer needs to learn math, but doesn't mean they make better boards either.

 

Off topic a bit, but learning to surf on weekends seemed restrictive to me in the beginning. But after some time I realised most of the guys who only surfed on weekends generally surfed better than most of the guys who lived at the beach. There's a math equation behind that, but the math was not the only influence.

Another reason is that it serves as a form of “short-hand” and thus reduces (often substantially)  the space required to say the same thing using words.

Among the reasons that I like to model surfboards is that I may discover something unexpected, or find a reason for something which you have observed but don’t understand or haven’t identified the cause.

By way of a couple of examples, consider the numerical surfing simulations that were shown earlier in this thread.

Each graphic is the result of numerous individual simulations–one for each pairing of trim angle and wave face slope angle. The solution to the equations is obtained using a successive approximation (or iterative) method. In this method, a trial value for an unknown variable (e.g. the speed of the flow) is chosen, and then vector equations for each type of force are calculated. The resulting vector forces are then added together to see if the resultant force vector equals zero. If that is the case, then a solution has been achieved.

However, that’s virtually never the case for the first guess. So a new guess is chosen for the speed of flow and the calculations repeated (note: things like wetted area, aspect ratio, etc. have to be updated at each time step as well). At the completion of each iteration step, the error (residual force of the vector summation) is noted, and the next guess for the trial value is chosen to come closer to providing a solution. This repeats until an acceptable error is achieved or a limit for the number of tries is reached… When a successful solution has been obtained, the speed of the flow, the wetted area, etc. are calculated and stored into their proper place in their corresponding matrices (1 matrix per variable of interest).  If the limit for the number of tries has been reached without obtaining a solution, the value for that parameter is stored as zero (as a flag to indicate that a solution was not achieved). Once simulations for every matrix element have been computed and stored, each matrix of values is contoured (to interpolate values between the pairs of points), and thus yielding the graphics presented earlier in this thread.

However, a problem was encountered each time one calculated one of these types of plots–no matter how clever one tried to be with guessing a better new value for the flow speed during the iteration process there was always a region in the matrix where it was not possible to converge to a solution. Every matrix generated was found to contain zeros in some of its cells. One interesting characteristic of the matrix was that the locations of the zeros in the matrix were along a relativel thin, gently curved line of zeros lying mainly in the upper left hand portion of the matrix. So when the matrices were contoured, they resembled a gorge cutting through a hilly landscape.

Initially I concluded that I just wasn’t clever enough to devise a way to provide a suitable new guess that would solve the force equations–even when I tried making only very tiny changes at each step. But I figured that nature would be able to accomplish what I could not. So my ad hoc decision was to obtain an estimate of what I was unable to calculate, but should be there, by writing a special interpolation program to smoothly contour these “probable real values” across the gorge of zeros. That’s basically how the graphics presented earlier in this thread were generated.

But I wasn’t very happy with that approach. For example, perhaps some of the value pairs of wave face slope and trim angle (e.g. along the gorge) the equations were just chaotic and would not converge. Buy I wasn’t very happy with that explaination either. Finally it dawned on me that perhaps there really is no solution along the “gorge” because in those simulations the motion was not steady-state (as had been assumed in developing the model). In that case, each time one estimated a new trial value, while it may have been appropriate for the previous “environment” (i.e during the previous iteration), it might not be appropriate for the current iteration step.

I further noted that the gorge was more or less confined to the middle to upper left portion of the matrix–a region characterized by large trim angles (rider well aft on the board), but small wave face slope angles. And it dawned on me that those conditions are typical of the environment that can lead a planing hull to start “porpoising”–a situation where the nose of the board begins a series of large up-ahd-down cycles. Anyhow, that feature was something that I had not forseen might happen, so it was a bit of a surprise and encouraging.

Another example…

In the simulation model, all the computed forces computed lie in a two-dimensional vertical plane that passes through the centerline axis of the board. None of the forces have a component that lies outside this plane. But I noticed that in the real world, when the rider is racing across the face of the wave (as in the simulation model), the shore-side rail of the surfboard is almost always a little lower than the wave-side rail.

That was a bit of a puzzle as that rotation (about the centerline of the board) introduces components of the pressure force vectors that are no longer confined to the two dimensional plane–and there were no obvious other force vectors that could balance these “out of plane” forces. If this situation were real, one would expect that the motion would not be steady state and the surfer and board would be changing position on the face of the wave. That does happen, but from watching surfing (and videos) it is apparent that there still are lots of times when that isn’t the case and steady-state conditions assumed in the model formulation remain.

So, the questions for the reader become:

What is balancing out these apparent “out-of-plane” pressure forces…and what implications does this have for board design and installation?

 

 

[quote="$1"]

So, the questions for the reader become: What is balancing out these new "out-of-plane" pressure forces...and what implications does this have for board design?

[/quote]

I won't pretend to understand your analysis, its too "sciency" for me.

But did you take into account the interaction of the board and its fins? 

In my less-than-humble, non-mathematical analysis, this interraction is HUGE.

And to be clear, my perspective is from multi-fin systems, not just single fins.

Im rollin the dice, what the heck.

If I understand correctly, you are modelling flow only in the longitudinal direction of the surfboard (flowing nose to tail).

I would think that the answer must be: “out-of-plane” flow…or more specifically changes in the direction of flow, tranverse to the direction of surfing.  Transverse flow (with the surfboard as your reference frame), interacts with the surfboard at an angle of attack that creates lift, and with the fins to create a correcting moment that prevents you from slipping out…I think.

If you look at river surfers or the fake surfing stuff on jet propulsion wave machines, they aren’t moving that much in the direction that the board is pointing.  In fact, they can point the board pretty much perpindicular to the flow of water and just kinda of sit there.  This means most of the flow is out of plane, in these river conditions.  Though there is probably less out of plane flow in ocean condtions.

 

Jeez, there’s some fairly outlandish claims going on here…far more so than Dans original use of Bernoullis principle.

Re: the Hard Way and an engineering degree…the same logic with far more factual evidence could be used to ascribe awe and respect for the tiny minority of human beings on this planet who ever become highly skilled surfers, let alone those who can actually design and shape a board that works. I would say Qualified Engineers would outnumber these rare humans by a factor of thousands to one. Thus I would hold Dan’s skills and achievements in at least equal regard to a qualified engineer, but thats just me. Anyone following the logic might reach a similar conclusion.

It seems to me the people expressing resentment in this thread are the “techies and number crunchers” who feel that a surfboard shaper and non-qualified layperson should enter their sacred terrain of numbers and equations without the proper academic background. This kind of snobbery is fairly normal and acts as a retarding force in many areas of human endeavour.

In terms of science, what is “common pratice” and “frequently easier” is shorthand for essentially meaningless in terms of understanding real world situations that are either too complex for the equations being used to approximate them or just plain based on erroneous assumptions. If we followed what was common practice and frequently easier we’d still be thinking we lived on a flat earth in the centre of the universe.

Using the analogy of an F1 versus a model T to compare engineering and surfing is a very poor analogy. Those two are both vehicles and essentially of the same nature, with components that can be understood easily by quantifiable science. Surfing and surfboard design science may have to be approached by a more quantum based theory that deals with probabilities not approximations of steady states. Engineering may be quite useless at apprehending this new view.

To the poster who maintained that people who only surfed weekends tended to surf better than people who lived near the beach (and surfed regularly I assume), well if you take out Phil Edwards, Midget Farrelly, Nat Young, Tom Carroll, Mark Richards, Cheyne Horan, Tom Curren, Kelly Slater, Joel Parkinson, Mick Fanning etc etc then yes, maybe they do.

No, of course fcuking not. Thats a ridiculous statement.

ObProuds intial assessment seemed right on the money to me.

Hey Yorky, I'm not comparing anything to those guys (edit: I didn't maintain anything, I said most and generally). I was talking about local guys, surfing locally at that time (edit: Local PIBC contests were often won by weekend surfers). When I moved to live at the coast I improved way past where I was surfing part time. Hey, some of that time was spent up your way (edit: I'd mentioned Ben King before, tradesman, surfer, ripped, r.i.p.) where the full time surfers were the ones who ripped, in particular the ones who shaped and made boards.

Thing was back then the average weekend surfer (edit: where I surfed) wanted it more than the average coastal dweller. Maybe they took it for granted, maybe most of the good locals at that time didn't surf on weekends, who knows, I didn't because I didn't see them, at that time.

 

I used to know a statistician who could make the numbers do whatever he wanted, or actually whatever the client wanted. Numbers, shmumbers, take them or leave them.

 

 

If my history is right the slightly mangled version of the equation does come from Simmons himself- via a letter or note John Elwell has. It’s kind of cool that’s it’s been passed that way in surf culture. I think it’s come to many people’s attention via Kenvin at www.hydrodynamica.blogspot.com and he’s just posted  some pretty cool footage of a slab of finless foam being surfed. Not sure what the math is on that but I couldn’t do it, nor can I get the images to post- worth checking out though. I saw Daniel surf a few weeks ago- tiny day, he was flying, totally standout performance. He’s been deep into this stuff the last year or two and seems to be making some interesting progress.

Very interesting stuff.  My guess is that the valleys in your matrices are occurring at points where things transition from laminar flow, to non laminar.  Have you considered the limits at which your equations might start to break down.  

I love numerical analysis.  I’m guessing that you have a big red book on your desk titled “Numerical Recipes in C.”  What method are you using to solve your differential equations?  Runge-Kutta?

**jezzus’’  ffs   **

one time i remember i used to go to an engineers to get him to make me up a new set of stands.

 then when i build my last house  got to have an engineer???

now you bunch of f## wits are telling me  you need to be an engineer to shape a surfboard

 lets see mr science here go shape one &give us a ride report as well’’

 this young fella rides well enough to be able to make a statment,   whether you belive him or not he can back it up’‘’

one question why would an engineer’’  worry about surfboards?

 

 

**me thinks this is another ausie bash  again.
**

Bravo Bravo thanks Kirk

also go to itunes, pod casts, down the line surf talk radio, have a lisen to scott bass’ interview with Tomo.(if you have had troubles with link earlier)

Maybe it is just his interpretation of the equation a craftsman being influenced fancy that.

I realy think the guy has the right to reply you all keep going on and on and Tomo has not had his say. How i also felt when Crafty was banging on about it.

If you want answers drop the guy a line, email, phone or through his web site or he is in the US at the moment getting boards glassed at Moonlight you could ask him in person.

On the other hand it has been quite interesting having a read of this post. There are some smart buggers out there. 

Imagine how more enjoyable surfing would be if you guys put the time in that you have in this post to making the water less agro…  Its funny how the mood in the water changes when you tell a complete stranger hey mate nice wave. Give it as shot.

Bravo Bravo bravo HUIE

Jezzus" ffs I like it and the rest 

[quote="$1"]

now you bunch of f## wits are telling me  you need to be an engineer to shape a surfboard

 

[/quote]

 

Actually, I/we are saying the opposite. I or BT for one have not said his surfboards dont work. We both agree he is probably making really good surfboards. 

The debate is why/how DT is using the equation on the website to design his surfboards. He is publicly publishing this on the world wide web for the world to see, which of course would be open to scrutiny by people who might know something about mathematics and engineering. If he doesnt like the scrutiny, he should remove that content from the website. Personally, I think he should remove it regardless, for his own benefit.

Most surfboards are made by folks who are not engineers. And most of them are not publishing scientific equations to sell product. DT is unique in this respect. Science is about facts, and if you dont have your facts straight, and publish it to the world, we then here we are, the "fuckwits" as you so eloquently put it.    

[quote="$1"]

one question why would an engineer''  worry about surfboards?

 

[/quote]

Who's "worried"?

Replace the word "worry" with "be intrigued".

Back on topic...

With respect to explaining surfboard lift, the answer is NOT found using Bernoulli's principle, the answer is dominated by Newtonian mechanics.

So the use of the equation is mostly bogus.

By all accounts, DT must a good surfer and surfboard designer, and for all I know a good guy. But a mathematician/scientist/engineer he is not. So why pretend? Marketing? Delusion? Desire?

Most if not all the industry guys lurk this website. No one is stopping DT from loggin in and provide his take on the debate. I wont hold my breath.

PS - I know why his surfboards work well. Its not because of Bernoulli. Lift, Plane, Release, Thrust, Low Resistance, Low Swing Weight, Max Acceleration. I do this on mine too. Its not too complicated, and I didnt need to use an equation to do it, much less tell people that I do.

But I will tell you now, most of those attributes are scientifically explained using Newtonian physics, not Bernoulli.  

With a few minor substitutions, it would seem that the same kind of statement could be made about the “anti-science” crowd–especially the statement: "This kind of snobbery is fairly normal and acts as a retarding force in many areas of human endeavor (esp. in the sciences as seen in the declining enrollments of US students in the sciences vs the enrollments of students in or from other industrial countries).

If you reread my posts in this thread, please refresh my memory as to anywhere that I said anything derogatory about the boards that Dan builds. What I am complaining about are persons (including Dan) who claim that their boards are based on science–but have the science wrong.

Some very heavy engineering goes into designing and building a competitive F1 car. For example, the frame must be strong enough to have some crash survivability and the flex engineered so that the handling geometry isn’t degraded when executing a turn, that the flex properties also don’t lead to metal fatigue (e.g. via resonances)–all while keeping the entire structure as light as possible. Similar comments apply to achieving engine performance while maintaining reliability, designing the aerodynamics of the body shell (and other external appendages) to minimize the drag as much as possible without harming (and preferably improving) the handling qualities, etc. Apparently engineers play a big role in accomplishing this, otherwise they wouldn’t be an important component of successful F1 racing teams.

Please explain to me why/how you envision that quantum mechanics plays anything other than a miniscule role in the  dynamics of surfing? (I will concede that it may play some role at the molecular level of the components used in building a board (e.g. materials degradation via exposure to sun light). But that’s not what we’re discussing here.)