It would be interesting and informative if any of the epoxy or compsand guys would comment on the central premise of DP’s: that eps and epoxy are pretty much doomed to failure, and pu/pe is the way forward for custom surfboards.
A big picture look at it circa 2009 would be relevant and timely.
Hows that shoulder going Solo?
Hi AFOAF -
Kim Thress at US Blanks was super cooperative and generous when asked if she would consider contributing to the raffle at one of the Big Sur events. I also have a parabolic stringered molded EPS blank from US Blanks that I won at the Surfing Heritage Museum workshop that Bill Thrailkill organized. Kim said she likes to help out when she can and commented that you never know where the next Rusty or Al might pop up.
The Big Sur event was the year we did a foam comparison. Many other blank makers contributed as well. I never did hear much about what the winners thought of the various foams but a lot of blanks were raffled off. We also mowed a few swipes on test samples to see how some of it cut.
Guilhem Rainfray even sent a finished board all the way from France.
I don’t want to leave anyone out so here is a break down of what was contributed and once again, I’d like to thank all of those who generously helped us out… it was quite a load of blanks. Cindy Crissman and Ken Ebert from Warvel Foam and Segway Composites respectively sent some nice WMD blanks and a finished demo board the following year.
US Blanks:
6’2" Fish, 6’2" P, 6’7" P, 6’4" EA, 6’8" EPS and several t-shirts
Ice-9:
7’0" and a ‘half’ blank for test cutting
Marko:
6’2" and a sliced ‘grom’ blank for test cutting
Just Foam:
6’9"
**Bio Foam: **(Wetsand Surf Shop)
6’4" F
Walker: (Foam, Fins and Fiberglass(
7’2" blank + glassing kit
White Hot:
6’3", 6’4", 6’8", 6’11"
FTR, I didn’t do any editing. I just put some paragraph breaks in to make it a little easier on the eyes.
I think the central point of his comments remains true - the innovation comes from the builders who are actively involved in building custom boards. As far as the EPS/Epoxy vs. PU/PE comparo I kinda of take that with a grain of salt and try to remember the context in which he wrote it at the time.
As I recall, at the time PU/PE was under assault as being an obsolete and dying mode of construction. DP chose to acknowledge the benefits, many of which are as true today as they were back then.
As for the comments expressed vs. the personal examples involved, I have no problem separating the two based on the fact that they didn’t occur at the same time. There obviously was a progression of time and events that influenced a change from one compromise to another. Who among us has never made a compromise based on less-than-purely-“right” reasons?
That’s why I can still read the piece today and disagree with some aspects of it without considering it completely off-base as a whole.
BTW, what holds me back on compsands is not - as a couple of you seem to constantly suggest - the nationalities or personalities of its main proponents, but the fact that it is a more complicated and time consuming process and it requires more equipment. I’m still struggling to put together the veneer thing. As a backyard buyilder I want to spend more time surfing and less time building. I swear to God that it has nothing to do with me being an American.
BTW, I have been doing EPS/Epoxy because for my situation it has been the better compromise.
Seeing as how we’re resurrecting old threads, how about someone digging up one of Bill Barnfield’s threads on the “pixie dust” of custom boards? I always liked those.
HELP!!!
Can a mod delete the whole thing from the quote? It took me seven minutes just to scroll through it the first time… Ha!
Cool - No one posted yet, so I can add…
John - I won the White Hot 6’8".
It was only 6’7’ - The beads were tighter than the 2# I’ve been cutting myself, so it shaped a little smoother. I use 3/4"-7/8" stringers, and I think - along with compound deck curves and maybe even some carbon fiber tow - it helps w/strength ( I buckled a board on one side in the front. the buckle/crack stopped at the stringer, and didn’t go through the compound curve - stoked me up on the compound deck curves.)
The White Hot had a 1/8"-3/16" stringer. I put multi compound curves and carbon fiber in the front quarter of the board, and I still managed to snap the whole thing clean off… I was left feeling good about my thick stringers. Not so stoked on that skinny little thing.
I say it again - the tiny tight beads shaped nice and smooth.
As for Dave P.: I figure he’s probably as nice any most people, but the attitude he puts forth in his writing have often put me off. At times I’d argue he’s down right wrong. I don’t care if he went “pop out” - more power, and money, to him.
Working the hot wire, the eps, and the epoxy hand lame w/great success for years now… “P” what?
Hi Steve,
I working up to it…I feel like i’m in a good position to comment, but I’m still thinking.
Josh
On the shoulder and thank you for asking:
Felt almost normal for about five hours straight Sat. Surf was head high over head hooks. Really nice and top to bottom. Long ones to going right. My 7’2’’ Nugget did what Mccoy do best road the pocket really well. I surfed a far cry from my best, but it’s been my best session so far. I paid later. I think I had a virus and only ate two bannanas prior to surfing. Was sick as a dog the rest of the evening. Well worth it though.
As far as I can see its the same arguments that have been repeated many times here, just all the arguments have been mixed togther into one tirade!
Poly vs Epoxy
EPS vs PU
Machine shaped vs Hand shaped
All I can really comment on is the Epoxy and EPS side of things.
I’m a believer that EPS can make good boards. But it’s definitely not without its problems. Construct boards with it properly, and it’ll treat you well. For me, that means sandwhich skins, the right formula for which took a lot of trial and error.
PU works, we all know that. Easy to shape. Fast. It can even last a long time if you glass it right.
But is there much more that can be done with it after 5 or 6 decades of refinement? Thats why i’m interested in wood, and at the moment EPS lets me use wood.
Epoxy is a “stronger” resin, there’s no disputing that. But it depends on the application as to whether that actually matters.
It definitely isn’t as easy as UV poly…
I could probably make my compsands with poly and they would last fine! But I choose not to, because I like working with epoxy. My boards are overly strong anyway, cos i’m too cautious.
The long and the short of it is - I don’t believe I have the skills to make a revolutionary breakthrough by inventing some new shape out of normal PU/PE.
But maybe, just maybe, by fiddling around with other materials I might come up with something cool.
I’m in this for the tech and the shapes, and PU only offers scope for shapes.
Some truth some lore some bullshit let anyone that wants to sort it so be it.No one here should speak for John Bradbury rest in peace maybe his son, maybe Clyde every man has his own mind.The end of windsurfings success may have been its own demise,the quality of production boards got so good that a custom for the masses was a cost factor the customs guys on Maui could not stay competitve [ cost wise] and this new resurrection in poly may just be a new marketing line{cost factor].Surfers are funny people some started windsurfing then became kiters then got old and became standup paddlers and all those in between want to be it all.dont get stuck too much in history if your having fun enjoy[but be respectful in the water] just remember when it over 6 feet and grinding surf if you havent been paying your dues you will not be out there but thats ok too sometimes a 1 foot wave with a longboard can be so much fun.Terry F once told me the best boards you make are the ones you do for yourself it will translate all you know or dont know about surfing humbling.Also lets give credit to the young shapers Gibbons Proctor Tokoro Aipa{SURFER/SHAPERS] and many others it nice to be respectful of the old guys but i am sure just like the performance of surfing the old shapers/surfers are a bit in awe what they see the young guys do with materials and if they dont notice or acknowledge then it just out of envy.Now for some surfing triviality visited Bradbury at his house on the Mesa said to me he had just started to make his best boards ever when he started working with epoxy an honest statement from a guy that i always thought his boards were great.fact or fiction only John and i know the thruth. Aloha…
I ended up with the Bio Foam 6’4" blank and just shaped it last week (various swaps involved). The foam shaped nice but had too many pea-sized pukas in it for me, all on the bottom of the board/blank…
John,
I had totally forgotten about that.
It’s good to see that they’ve carried on the tradition of stoking out the little guy.
Thanks for the clarification and thanks to all the vendors that chip in at all the events, it’s greatly appreciated.
I just didn’t want our sponsors to think we forgot about them!
Regarding where they’re at in 2009…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMA1MVFmg8w
No mention of material tech in this one. No mention of country of manufacture and certainly no ‘pool toy’ comments. He’s on the payroll now.
Wow, Parmenter on YouTube hucking epoxy pop-outs to “intermediates”, complete with eighties style cheesy graphics.
Throw yourself off a bridge mate, and save us any future embarrassment.
Steinbeck’d be writhing in his grave.
Hope he makes bank before this pool toy craze goes the way of the hula hoop.
ALOAF: I was just trying to keep it all in perspective on the vain of the manifesto. Not intending to promote anyone company. Trying to keep it non bias and just based on historical value. I was only kidding about the 2 buck chuck. Come by the shop and I’ll give you a decent drinkable vintage for you enjoyment. I owe you that much for all your help!
SD
From where I sit, I would think that the original post is outdated, but there are some things that are still valid. I think we all owe a lot to the old guard of shapers. I think the cheap boards from Asia have taken their toll on the beginner market. I also think that there’s so much happening with boards today that it’s a very interesting time to be making surfboards.
I agree that the backyard guys have been very important sources for
innovation, but I also think that the great established shapers working
with surfers that can clearly articulate their experiences about a
board that have been pushing things. Donald Takayama put things into perspective with the Surftechs… he said that guys may try one, but then want something a little different than Surftech has. That’s when they go to him and get something tailored to their needs.
I’m amazed at all the guys here starting threads about their #1 or #4 or whatever, and they’ve only been surfing for a very short time. I think this is the future, guys just going and making their boards themselves. I think that may be a little bit of a threat to the established big name companies selling the same thing that everyone is selling, but at a higher price because they have a “name”. All those garage guys eventually be trying to get their name out and take a piece of the pie. Their target price will be somewhere between the Asia boards and the “name” brands. And we all know that it just takes enought time to be really good at doing things.
After 40+ years of surfing, I’m making the boards I ride myself. I shape/glass, do the whole thing like some of the others here on Swaylocks. Again, I think this is the future for the surfing industry. I’ve had a chance to make PU/PE, PU/epoxy, EPS/Epoxy, XPS/epoxy, and a variety of composite sandwich boards using different skin materials. Each type of board has it’s merits, but if you’re looking for the fastest, easiest way to make boards, PU/PE is the obvious choice.
I think in time we’ll see that there are valid alternatives to pu/pe that surf as well and hold up longer. But, they won’t be as easy and quick to make.
As far as what I’m seeing with innovation in design, I can’t understand the fascination with either the wood alaias, or the mini simmons boards. I just don’t see them being able to ride waves better than other boards. Same for longboards or SUPs, but we know what those are about. But, a proven design using modern alternative materials will eventually find its place in the market and show that “for high performance boards, nothing is better than PU/PE” is outdated.
isnt that pintail longboard on craigs list
hey lennox if you want my opinion there is no reason to make shortboards out of anything other then pu and UV cure resin. people that ride big boards or longboards or surf very heavy waves that snap alot of boards could consider epoxy sandwich . but they will still snap in heavy waves quite easily as well. i pound eps cores a shit unless you cover them with at least 3mm of a solid water resistant timber . vents are bullshit . rockers are dodgy on eps blanks and they are cosmetically inferior. 2 pound cores makes the sandwich board to stiff.
sandwich boards suit a minority of the surfing population very very well.but unless marketed correctly like surftech and firewire they will stay in this niche forever.
surfing is a fashionable sport
its all fashion, a board has to appeal to a surfers fashion sense
surftechs are like fashion for old guys like conservative menswear shops
polys are for street fashion and are cool
just my opinion
i like to build and surf all types of board construction and sometimes i ilke poly boards better sometimes i like sandwich boards better. my poly boards last well, at least a year or so and are easy to sell
If a shaper/glasser was paying attention, it was now possible to use a lighter, lower density blank AND glass it with lighter – or less – cloth. …Yet, the result would still be a lighter, stronger surfboard.
7 years ago!
Great Read.
has anyone clicked that this is a full circle with or without d p.
[quote="$1"] Wow, Parmenter on YouTube hucking epoxy pop-outs to "intermediates", complete with eighties style cheesy graphics. Throw yourself off a bridge mate, and save us any future embarrassment. Steinbeck'd be writhing in his grave. Hope he makes bank before this pool toy craze goes the way of the hula hoop. [/quote]
Funny you should mention it. Steinbeck himself did get roped in by the powers-that-be, the LBJ administration coerced him to do a "justifiable war" documentary on the Vietnam War - you know, 'one country goes communist, the dominoes fall, and the whole world caves in' line of reasoning. Later, according to his son, he deeply regretted making the film, once he realized that he was so star-struck by being approached by the pres. of the US to do a film, he didn't see how they were using his credibility to promote their own agenda. Of course, by that time his once acute powers of perception were dimmed by years of threats, emotional abuse, and alcoholism. 'Grapes' nearly destroyed the man, and I guess, in some ways, did destroy him. Tragic story.
