go with FCS fusion - they are the lightest and smallest footprint and you can easily make fins for them out of flat stock (1/4" g-10 ready to go!)
i have installed them in a few boards with no jig - go can freehand them pretty easily
if you are doing a 5 fin or 2+1 setup you will have a minimum open slot length for your empty boxes
futures are also good - they are my go to mostly because i have been using them since before FCS had an under the glass option and i have a tons of fins i like and the jig template setup
i tried probox for a couple of boards - way heavy and the little inserts tend to crack. i am not a fan of post glassing installation either - not as strong
fcs round plugs will break so dont use them unless you are doing a little trailer fin or a severly contoured bottom where none of the other systems will fit
4 way looks interesting but overly complicated. there was a system that a swaylocks guys was doing called surftrux that seemed interesting also. maybe try to 3-d print the ones that accept all fins that the swaylocks guys are working on right now!
If your blank happens to be EPS, then a post-glass install has a couple things going against it. Not deal-breakers; just things to be aware of.
Exotherm. Post-glass fin boxes are typically set in a cavity with lots of room to fill with resin. End result if not done carefully: melted EPS. Pre-glass systems generally fit snugly into the blank with a minimum of resin. There are various ways to deal with this potential issue.
Potential water intrusion. The seam where the routed glass and resin filler meet is a potential access point for seepage. This can be remedied by capping over the boxes with a final layer of glass, but that takes some technique, adds more work, more weight, and then what was the point of not using a pre-glass system(?).
Weight. Aside from the weight of the boxes themselves, post-glass systems are surrounded by that mass of resin that’s holding them in place. Pre-glass are inherently lighter for that reason.
Strength. The lateral strength of the install comes from the contact between the box and the fiberglass. With a pre-glass system, the whole top face of the box is in contact with the glass. With a post-glass system, the only real contact is at the edge of the cavity. This point can actually act as a fulcrum in a side impact and poxes can pop right out.
Having said all that, I still like Probox. It’s a sturdy enough system for my needs. The fins are held with a nice tight compression fit; they do not wobble. Very solid. The boxes are a bit heavy. When I’m ready to go to the next level, I hope Gearbox is available in the USA. As already stated by others, Robin is great to deal with.
4way is SO not complicated. I am a kook, and I install them with a steady hand and a hole saw drill bit. Under the glass.
Of course if having lots of variables to work with seems complicated then maybe they would seem so. But being able to adjust cant by massive degrees - I put @ 8 degrees in the box, so I can put a 6 degree insert in and get 14 , or put the 6 in backwards and take it down to 2. I can play with the toe, and I can get @ 3/8" fore/aft. Then again, I’m an experimental fool, and it works for me. I’ve used their fins, and I’ve customized RedX.
And the folks at 4way have been very cool to me.
I think boxes of any type are nice for travel too.
Good luck, and what ever you do, take your time, ask around, do test runs, and don’t get hung up on thinking you need the fancy instal kit/jig/etc… Seems most that is geared towards production, lack of skill/creativity. Of course, I’m up in the middle of the night with raging heart burn… I don’t know shit.
…seems than most here are from USA so they are stucked in the same brands and do not want to here about other good things…like when Clark foam closed down.
Futures is not a good system; survived (appart from the marketing) because it s put under the glass and the alternative was the FCS plugs…that was the worst system (however almost all used them and still in use in some countries included the knock offs)
If you want to use the FCS fins, that have a very good selection of fins, you should put fusion boxes; under the glass, light, easy to fit and resist most impacts.
4WFS have all these and more and like TaylorO is saying, it s very easy the installation, similar to the fusion boxes and then is nothing complicated; what s the complicated part?
plus, when you hit something mots times you only un screw 2 screws, change the plastic disc and you are in the water so you do not enter to the shop to fix anything…complicated?
Before I switched to ProBox, I did a redneck test against the Fusion set in 1.35# true weight EPS. The samples were smashed with sledge hammer. You can see where the hammer hit the fin.
I prefer a broken fin to a broken box.
I would never use Futures because the cant angle is in the fin. I’m a quad guy who doesn’t like the limitations that come with Futures quad setups. Ever notice some of the pros who use Futures, have FCS in the back. Yeah, Futures not quad friendly at all.
You can buy the copy fusion’s from Aliexpress.com . I’ve been using them for about two years they are quite good. Had a couple of batches that were not very white so ask for the super white one’s. They work out about $7-$8Au per set.
Back in the beginning of Sept. I landed on my board and I hit the fins with my backside (mostly the upper buttocks) after going over the falls on a good sized wave. I’m pretty sure I landed on the front edge of the forward fins, but also a bit on one side. When I checked my board I was missing the front box and fin on the left side of the photo and the other 2 boxes were lifted out so that the tip of the fin was touching the board. I was able to push those fins back in and get to the beach.
As you can see the fins came out pretty clean. On this install I didn’t add any glass over the boxes. I was going to do a diamond shape covering the 4 fins going out to the rail, but was lazy and I wanted to ride the board. This is a marko blank and the foam is really tight. The routed out foam was very smooth so I think the bond between the foam and box wasn’t strong enough. In the future, I’m going to make the routed section more of a wedge, so there’s more holding the box in.
I am lucky that I landed on the front edge because I think if I landed on the trailing edge, I’d have been hurt badly. I didn’t even realize till I was close to shore that I had sliced my left foot pretty bad on that wipeout.
I’m still going to be a Probox guy, but I may try the newer gearbox. Wish they made the gearbox with the adjustable inserts. That would be a killer setup.
What were your boxes wrapped with? roving, coth? If cloth, was it sticking out and up beyond the deck? I think Larry is recommending the cloth protrude out and up.
I have a roll of 1" wide coth tape. I wrap the box twice with that, then stuff it into the cavity. I’ve been poking the cloth down with a tongue depressor, so it doesn’t poke out above the bottom surface. I tried Larry’s way of letting the cloth stick above the surface a little once. I had a few voids after sanding. I like the idea of having lots of coth bunched up and partailly poking up to be sanded flush. I just need to get it void free.
BTW, I’ve never bothered poking into the EPS and trying to creat more bite. I think Larry does that too.
**I’ve been checking out the 4wfs and it might be the best fin system I have ever seen. I called the rep but haven’t heard back yet so maybe you and any others can answer my questions please… **
**1) Will any other fins fit their boxes? **I’ve customized lots of RedX, as the width of the tab is the same, so it’s just a matter of cutting of a little length, and making an indentation for seating the set screws.
**2) Would it be anymore difficult to make fins that fit their boxes than it would be to make fins for any other system? **Given the tab is a rectangle, making fins for them would be realatively easy.
**3) Can you buy the boxes in the US now? **I got mine shipped from their rep out of So. Cal…
**4) Do you use a hole saw instead of buying their expensive jig? **I use a hole saw.
**5) Did you make your own jig for a router to cut the leg for their UTG Nano boxes? **You can break off the leg. It takes a bit of hand sanding the foam - I use eps - to get the lip to set down, but it is no big deal. I put cant in the box, and set them in deep concaves, so it takes a extra bit of careful work, but that is what I want to do. If the bottom was relatively flat, it would be a piece of cake.
6) Have you installed them in EPS? If so, how do you deal with the heat issue? I mix in cab-o-sil to make for a strong seating… I make sure it’s a tight fit, with slow epoxy, and I’ve not had heat issues.
To me the best thing has been the ability to play around with toe and cant. It can be like having more than one board. The fore/aft is good too - I am glad I was able to experiment with recomendation from Robin Mair, re. spacing between fins on quads, with RedX boxes, which have a full 5/8" movement. He spoke of the zone from @ 1/2" - 3/4", and I was blown away that I could feel the drag come into play at the 3/4" mark… Game changer for me. That and the “anchor” effect of a center fin…
I wrapped each box with left over strips of glass. I cut the glass into long narrow strips and wrap the box the way the installation guide says to. I also have a layer of glass inside the routed hole and it sits along the foam and goes out beyond the surface of the board. When I do the installation, I pour a little resin in the hole then smear it all around to get all the foam wet. Then I lay the piece of glass I precut to fit into the hole and use the wrapped box which is also now wet from the wrappings into the hole snugly then I fill in the hole with a mix of resin and microballoons. I use an eye dropper type of tool to fill in the holes and make sure the boxes are pushed down hard. I’ll sometimes lay a small brick over the box to keep it from lifting. You don’t want them to lift, they need to be all the way down into the jig. After it’s all set, I take a grinder and cut down the hardened glass and the box, then folow up with a rotary sander then a RO sander. Sometimes, but not always, I lay another layer of glass over the boxes. If I do that, I fill in the box with flour or Bisquick or melted wax I use melted wax to cover the grub srew which is down in the screw hole. I’ll cut the glass and and clean up the insert hole with a file.
The thing I noticed about this board was that the foam is really super fused and the hole is so smooth. I should have roughened it up a bit like I do to the box before installing it. As I mentioned, I will make the bottom of the hole a little wider next time to add a bit more hold.
I have no idea of what the outcome would have been if I hit the boxes from the side. I have had bad installations break away from the core after a hard turn and sit loose inside the core. If you don’t seat the boxes down far enough, you will sand away too much of the area where the grub screw is and eventually that area will break and you will loose a fin. I try to install the boxes properly because I have had my share of problems from bad installations.
I don’t understand it. ProBox is in my opinion a nice system. No more problems with breakage, installation or versiility than any of the industry leaders/favorites. After lam install that could easily be capped for added strength. Optional cant with three differant inserts. Takes ProBox fins and FCS. All nice advantages. And- The ProBox fin system seems to be very popular here on Sways. By the posts on this thread; I would have to say the most popular system. And yet; You can’t give them away and I never see them installed on boards in Surf Shops. Everywhere I look Supply shops are slicing prices on ProBox just to get rid of their inventory and they’re still not selling. So the question for the edgy/techo Sways devotees is; What am I missing? Lowel
Sure! Fiberglaa Supply for one. $6…66 per box with choice of insert or a 0 degree center box. Drops to $6.39 if you buy more than a dozen .Drops to under $6.00 for 25 or more. Of course you pay shipping on top of that. I can’t speak for Brad at Foam EZ, but thay no longer have the boxes listed on their site. They do have a few fins listed though. Surf Supply doesn’t list them at all. Surf Source–Not. . Can’t tell with Fiberglass Hawaii whether or not they even carry them. Since you are in the Islands maybe you can tell me what you pay for them at FGH… If they carry them?? I’ve got a few thruster sets listed on Ebay for $30 per set, with inserts and a templtate. Free shipping. Thinking about dropping that price just to get rid of 'em I know that some of the shops mentioned above have carried ProBox in the past. So I’m thinking they are falling from popularity. With the exception of Swaylocks devotees you don’t see them in the market place installed on new boards. I think you should contact Fiberglass Suppy and put your money where your mouth is. “Buy them up”. PS–I’m not knocking Pro-Box. Those boxes are a good system. The insert is a cool idea. Since they are in the Market place they should continue to innovate. Come up with alternatives. An under lam install. Boxes with the cant alrady in them. Lighter weight materials. A lot of good directions to go.
Right. And I think they are priced plenty reasonable. The question is; Will they re-stock when they sell out?? They used to have them listed at over $8.00 per box. So $6.66 and below is a very good price. Lowel
I couldn’t find them on Oahu. FH doesn’t carry them here. I had pmed Larry a while ago, and it didn’t seem anyone was selling the boxes or his fins on island. I didn’t try that hard so they might be here.
