It should also be noted that different spots may be prohibitive for one of the techniques. Puerto Escondido for instance, it would seem that more board is necessary, due to all the paddling. Teahupoo, a shorterboard is needed as the ledging of the wave and the roundness of the barrel seems to eat longer boards.
If I recall, Shaun thompsons’s infamous pipe board was originally designed for Sunset, but the over rocker made it a dog that just pushedwater in the slopier waves of Sunset - then he took it out to Pipe where that rocker could breathe and made history.
My observation is that “best” rocker for a surfer can depend on are they front foot or rear foot centric. As a front foot surfer myself, the boards that work best for me always have a bit less tail/more gradual rocker with more V, as I tend to pump and drive the “fall line” from further up. Tail centric surfers such as my son seem to do better with increased tail rocker as they tend to punch more from the rear and surf more vertically.
And that rocker differential can also affect appropriate fin placement. Less tail rocker, nudge the fins forward, more, a tad back…
Am I flapping without lift-off here, or some agreement on that?
Brasilian, Pepe Lopes - Pipeline - 1976 Pipe Masters, in which he got 6th place. He also (not this photo) got the wave of the day.
[img_assist|nid=1054469|title=Pepe Lopes Pipeline 1976|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=480]
In this photo you can clearly see how well these boards functioned in hollow waves in spite of their lower rockers. By tilting the board on edge we used the pronounced hip in the template to fit the board in the face of the wave rather then so much the bottom rocker. This also created a long somewhat parallel area forward in the template around center which allowed full rail contact with the face of the wave providing extended grip for projecting down long hollow tubes.
The board Pepe is using was actually my personal board. I think he was just 16 years old. He ran out of money and boards but wound up getting an invite to the Pipe Masters, so I sort of “adopted” (sponsored) him and took him in to my home for a few months so he was able to stay long enough to compete. His mom loved me! 
What kind of rails on that board, Bill? Looks like hard down rails the whole way? A “Brewer” rail? How does that relate to low rocker/hollow surf?
Bill,
Related to nj_surfer's question, those boards were really thick and seemed to ride higher in the water--more on the water than in the water. How does this affect the rails and rocker? It would seem that they (rails and rail line along the rocker) would a) not be as engaged in the wave; or b) be engaged in a different way (lower on the rail apex).
That photo is priceless!
C
Ummmm… I think those rails were actually “Barnfield” Rails… In fact, I am sure of it. :-)
The rails would have been, full, boxy and fairly hard edged. I may have some other photos, I will look for them. I don’t know what you envision as a Brewer Rail. But these weren’t the flatish deck, with a distinct corner at the deck/rail junction that then tapered fairly flat and angular down to the radius and into a low edge.
Not sure what you mean but… Highly rockered boards weren’t the norm yet. I experimented but customers weren’t ready for anything new. Customers tend to fixate on a look and equate a certain level of performance with that look. It is very hard to change the look without disrupting sales. I willingly agree that more rocker was needed, but the market wasn’t ready yet. There is a whole history to this that I would love to have the time to cover.
But consider how often even people on Swaylocks refer to things via a “Model Name” rather then the detailed measurements that compose the actual design and its function. (and who says these “Models” are even consistent in dimensions) Humans love to simplify things… we create mental snap shots of things, ascribe a value to them, add a name to reference them and then buy according to that images value in our minds. Of course 99% of the time we have little or no actual experience to determine the real value of the item, so we allow friends, advertising, team riders, marketing and magazines, to fill in that unknown 99% for us. In the end, as long as we don’t stray too far from the accepted norm, we feel content in our purchases and position in the scene. And if we buy the accepted cool product… we are cool guys and the world is a wonderful place. But beware of wearing the wrong kind of socks to high school as your popularity might plummet.
Hollow tubing waves that peel rapidly down the line require boards that can hang high on a steep wall while pointing down the line toward tubes exit rather then angular and toward the beach. Boxy, low rails with a smaller radius at the edge allow the board to glide on their edge like a rocket sled. This allowed for rapid changes in the boards elevation in the tube with slight ankle movements as the board wasn’t penetrated too deep into the waves face. These were highly specialized boards for a particular type of surfing. They weren’t ideal for most other spots. My Pipe Boards were pretty different from what I would ride at Rocky Point or elsewhere.
Remember these were single fins. So if the boards outline template was wide and curvey in the center, that would push the center of the board out from the wave face, angling the nose more toward the beach and not down the line where the tube’s exit was. If one then tried to force the wide point deeper into the wave to align the nose with the preferred exit line The tail would be pivoted out and the board and fin would lose traction and spin out.
Once Tri Fins arrived everything changed as the inner forward fin would claw into the wave face and provide all the traction one needed. This is why we could use shorter boards, with outline templates that were more diamond shaped with plenty of curve in the center and still make long walls.
I am not sure who shot that photo, so I couldn’t provide credit but it is a great shot! I got it from Pepe’s Brother.
I hope my reply to nj_ answered your other questions. I am not sure how “really thick” is in your world but that board was probably around 2 3/4" to 3" thick. I was about 140 pounds back in those days. What made them seem a lot thicker then todays boards was the flatter decks and fuller rails. But mine weren’t normally as full and boxy as what McCoy and Mark Warren was doing back then.
But like I said to nj_, these were sleds for surfing Pipeline lefts by taking off behind the peak at Off The Wall and getting tubed by it as it then fed into the bowl’s tube, continuing the tube ride there, and finally into the sandbar’s tube. They didn’t work so well at Sunset Beach etc.
…hello BB,
in the other gun thread I mentioned to debate about 50/50s on guns…you say that board have rounded full rails and may be with a bit of edge to the bottom
might consider that as kind of 50/50s (rounded not eggys)?
I had a friend who rode Gerry’s pipe style boards, all about 7-10 or longer. What Bill says about the boards spinning out is true. I’ve seen his happen at a spot that breaks very similar to pipe. My friend was a bit to far up and the whole tail broke loose and he basically side slipped down the face in the pit of a reasonably good sized wave. Luckily he had both hands out and was able to stay on the wave and his board by dragging both arms about half way up to his elbows. The tail eventually caught and he avoided a nasty thrashing. I’ll never forget that wave and how big my friends eyes were trying to manage that ride. I was paddling back out so I had a great view of it.
We surfed waves that were more than double overhead that day, just me and my friend Mark Kahalekulu at a spot we called Lisa’s. It was so big that day that we sat out in the deep water during the sets for the first half hour or so until we got up enough courage to ride a couple. I think it was the winter of 1975 maybe 1974 definitely before 1976.
My brother had 2 pipe style boards and they only worked in those extreme barrels. I had a hard time because I rode big left breaks backside, and those boards had very little tail rocker. Not the kind of boards I could make a hard bottom turn with, you needed to come in with an angle and then set your edge and run. I think the board S. Tomson rode at pipe changed all that for us backside riders. I never could figure out how my brother could ride those boards in normal waves, but he did pretty good back in those days.
Aloha reverb
Sounds interesting, but I am not sure what that “other” thread was. Did I participate in it? Point me to it so I can see what was said there.
That’s exactly what I mean… thanks. And I get what you’re saying about that hard, low rail apex and the ability to glide along a high, steep line. One of my all time favorite boards has that kind of rail profile, with a quad setup on a very wide tail that creates a longer, straighter, more parallel planshape from the widepoint back. Pretty ugly by contemporary standards, but absolutely flies along the highest, fastest line possible.
…hey BB not too much said in that thread, because of that I proposed that debate but no body follow it…
the thread is the Ace s 10´6´quad gun.
-in other point: in your opinion in a “new” type of guns (for toobs) or semi guns outlines (not so straight middle down) you consider that put a big single fin cannot work? the board will slide? not engage enough?
I think is possible to work the tail rocker, tail outline and rail plus fin to grab those boards…but as most shapers, Im not a gun expert and you live there man where the action is, so Im open the debate a bit more.
-so, Im very interesting in 50/50s type of rails all along to sweet spot to say something and single fins on “new” outlines.
thanks
Yes, I am definatly interested in reverbs posting above.
As I metioned earlier, i am currently planning to build a 7'6 single fin gun. To throw some numbers out, would 19" wide with a wide point about 4.5" up and a tail width of 12" give me enough grip. I know that I am not surfing pipe, or any thing close to that hollow, but would this work in some steep DOH+ california reef breaks. And I assume that fin size and placement would play a vital role too. 8.5" deep, 5.75" base at 5.5" up from the tail. as for tail width, I know that the bolts back in the day were somewhere around 9" in the tail, so i'm wondering if 12" would work
I completely understand what you are saying about the fin disengaging, and I don' want this to happen, but i also didn't want a gun that is so straight in the tail that it looks like a coffin.
The answer to your question in the above post, is yes. It will work just fine. Me, I'd go 20'' wide, but thats just me.
Rocker, outline, thickness, bottom contour, fin setup......
They ALL play a part in the way a board will perform or not perform. It's this recipe that makes a board what it is. The rider is the main ingredient though.
Thanks for the response. I drew the outline on my 81ea Blank last night, and stared at it for a while. it looked good, but I wanted to make sure that it would work well in punchy surf too. thanks again
asteve, I took a page from the ol hellmen of the 50’s and bought some butcher paper to draw outlines to study. I also do as they (Trent, Curren,Preece) did and hang it from the ceiling to stare at. It is cheap and gives great perspective. Smart and Final sells rolls for less than 20 bucks. I’ve been doing this for years and it saves alot of time when you begin shaping. All the questions are already answered before you even skim.
I believe this to be the magic combination. The board has to fit the rider’s style and ability and the type of waves being ridden. I think the great thing about Sways is that we can test these theories and see how well they fit with our personal situation. I know that some of the things I’ve tried from listening to others here don’t work for the kind of waves I ride.
I come late to this, so apologies for interjecting into what is an interesting thread on gun design and history.
I think the key to the original question is not in total tail rocker, but rather progressive kick in the last 3" of the tail rocker (about 1/4"). I do this on all my boards and it seems to provide a good trade off between drive (because most of the tail rocker is unchanged) and getting vert, but mostly it makes a difference in free falls after a high top turn or air and, as asked in the first post, for making late late (airborne) drops.
Anything to save from getting pitched…AGAIN!!!