Innovation from the backyard - interesting studies

General Discussion
1

I remember a while back there were some threads about whether backyarders were responsible for any innovations in surfboard building.

Take a look at these papers - this one is relevant to the backyarder question:

http://opensource.mit.edu/…/shahsportspaper.pdf

My feeling is that surfing’s early days fit the patterns demonstrated in this paper but we were in the mature stage until recently ie not much coming out of the backyard. The advent of Surftech and offshore production I think has kicked off a new cycle.

This paper is relevant to Swaylocks and how the process in the first paper is going to be different becuase of Sways:

http://opensource.mit.edu/papers/shah4.pdf

Check them out - interesting stuff.

2
Quote:

My feeling is that surfing’s early days fit the patterns demonstrated in this paper but we were in the mature stage untill recently ie not much coiming out of the backyard. The advent of Surftech and offshore production I think has kicked off a new cycle.

Here’s the thread we are referring to: http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=219902;search_string=backyard%20innovators;#219902

I took the time to read these paper (Yes, I have no life) and agreed with what the author was saying. On the note of “the advent of surftech,” are you suggesting that more people will be experimenting with different designs and such on epoxy and surftech boards? Or that the fact that professional manufacturers’ making advances re-inspires backyard shapers to think of alternatives. Either way, something is bound to happen soon (relatively soon with respect to history of the sport).

With all these advances, why am I dying to make a balsa wood longboard or single fin? Hmm.

3

w,

I didn’t put that very well, what I meant was that the fact that surfers are prepared to ride epoxy sandwich boards, has started people thinking “I can make a better one myself” so a lot of people are experimenting with this stuff and opening new doors. It’s like for the last 20 years PU/PE has not seen a lot of progression in design so there’s no challenge for your tinkerer.

Quote:

With all these advances, why am I dying to make a balsa wood longboard or single fin? Hmm.

Because you want to ride something beautiful you made with your own hands. Now is that board you are dying to make going to be a vacuum bagged, balsa skinned long board with one of Blakestah’s rotating singlefin boxes? - we’d all love to know how it rides

4

Ah, thanks for clearing that up PH. On a personal note, a friend of mine is always coming up with stupid ideas for boards and fin setups, but I usually talk some sense into him. Maybe I need to stop being such a nay-sayer and see what innovations we come up with.

Quote:

Because you want to ride something beautiful you made with your own hands. Now is that board you are dying to make going to be a vacuum bagged, balsa skinned long board with one of Blakestah’s rotating singlefin boxes? - we’d all love to know how it rides

Too be quite honest I don’t know exactly what I want. All I know for sure is I want to at least experience shaping (or for that matter riding) a wood board, because I never have. Same goes with Blakestah’s rotating singlefin box. I would really like to check that out. Still contemplating, but when things get moving I’ll make sure to post.

5

It’s an interesting comment Pinhead as in many ways it’s still way easier for a backyarder with limited tooling etc to make boards in PU. But the fact that Asian boards are publicised as mass produced has and will continue to polarize the market.

Many people I have spoken to now dismiss alot of the bigger domestic factories as they see less of a difference to an Asian board. They look for the small handcraft specific factories and these guys are busier than ever.

I wonder if another dimension to your opinion is that right at the very other end of the scale even past the small handshaped craft factories is the desire to make it yourself. This may be as you said the start of another cycle of backyarders…

6

Is it too bold for me to ask if anyone has any innovations under construction?

This way may or may not have anything to do with boards…

7

i dont see how a pu board is easier

i have never tried to make one

but i have to do stuff all shaping to get a great result in compsand(hotwire and templates do most of the work in 15mins)

pu may be easier(but i doubt it ,may be a bit cheaper) but epoxy and eps is a hell of lot less toxic

im on my 6 th board ever and already have a high performance surfer rating my boards

he rips on my worst one

heres a pic of him on the tinyest surf on my absolutly shitest board


8

i do admit hes a bit of a freak in the small stuff but just as good when it gets better as well

9

Gumby,

I’m going to start thinking before I type - what I meant about offshoring was a lot of guys, previously making low cost PU/PE boards (now being pushed out by cheaper imports)will be looking at ways to get a competitive edge. Finding niche markets (say handcrafted retro boards) is one way, the other is through innovation. With PU/PE boards flex and bouyancy were built into the blank. With compsand those attributes are able to be manipulated independantly so your tinkerer has got a whole new set of fun problems to tackle. With fins you’ve got guys like Blakestah who has applied some serious lateral thinking to foil and AOA problems - if his system proves itself - then board shape might have to be changed to optomise performance of these fins so you’ll get more problems for the tinkerers to solve.

10

I did not read the links but I like what you are saying.

Sometimes Ideas are like a rubber ball ,they just have to be bounced around…

11

I think its just the beggining really

their is potential for unlimited developement

theres no standards to what where doing with compsands

or standards in materials for that matter

i mean if i paddled out with straps on my board in the eighties i would of copped hell

well. tow in guys use em

im gunna put some in one of my boards so i can fly upside down too

why not

its not like theres anyone around to see me do it

im a very average surfer BUT

i could make a 5 foot double ender with no/small fins and straps

and do 360s and weired trick slides all day long

hey. snowboarders do it why not surfers

not that great to watch ,but a whole load of fun

also grip systems can be further developed surely

kickFlips and shove-its and beyond with concave decks

skate boarding manouveres could become standard.

oh and foams

inside,outside doesnt matter anymore

hard/ soft. whatever.performance and be found no matter what

some one was telling me about a foam called SOLID SMOKE

has anyone heard of that.It was on a future program

it was incredibly light and fire proof

i reckon in the future boards could weigh as little as 2 pounds

funny thing is, surfing equipment is one of the few products that hasnt really developed from a tecnological standpoint.

would you be satified with a mobile phone the size of a brick

most consumers wouldnt put up with it in other products

why should they accept it in surf equipment.

the future is uncertain

but it will change gauranteed

the older generations will scratch their heads in amazment at

what the next generation of surfers will be riding

and the tricks that will be popular

im my case CHOP HOPS

still cant figure out that one

12

they were interesting links , and well documented , except , right at the end of the section where they were showing a new innovation , who the inovator was and when it was innovated , seems they had a few blanks at the end that couldnt be filled ??..

one of the guys i know ,who developed sandwich constuction rang me the other day , its ironic because he not remotely associated with the windsurfing industry anymore , he was looking for a new surfboard and asked how long he had to wait ?..

i said he would always have first priority , after all , he was the guy who convinced me to buy a vacuum pump , so i would always be indebted to him …

the whole article confirmed that innovation in design , will logically start in the backyard and small manufacturer …

as far as the comments about polarisation …

that is only true for 10% of the market who even knows the difference …

a mother who walks into a department store and helps her 11 year old son choose a surfboard that was mass produced in china , has no concept of cool , industry standards or change , or even remotly cares or even knows who the current world champ is …

she and her son are a statistical consumer ,who now exist because a large manufacturer now has the confidence to provide large numbers of surfboards , confident that the sport is now mainstream enough and static enough , that large volumes of generic product can be moved …

the big companies running streamlined productions and asian production houses are now starting to thrive because of a lack of innovation steming from the backyard …

inovation and constant change are the biggest obstacle to large producers over running a market , because they cant guarantee there current production runs will even still be in fashion the next year by the time they are containered and shipped to market …

gumby , dont be mislead , most of the polarised views about asian boards comes direct from those being hurt …

as any un biased customer has good things to say , you only hear negative things from biased and hurting local manufacturers …

i do fully agree with you about those in the market seeking a well made quaility local product over a mass produced one …

but they are the 10% of the market whose choices are driven by performance and usability …

plus many of them are switching to asian imports over inferior technology being produced on mass locally …

the suits crunching the numbers who arent lead users and who dont benifit directly from a quality product , are strongly driven by profit , so saving a few dollars to change to a foam or resin that vastly decreases the performance or longterm durability of the product doesnt even get considered …

all decisions are based on the bottom line , chasing the margins …

so if you do make a quality board and have some innovation as well , and you dont stoop to the same practices of the larger producers , then of coarse you will be busy …

i dont see a cycle of new backyarders apperaing if they are dishing up the same old tired technology …

they wont get past there backyard unless they have something better than the status quo …

but add to that the technology coming out of asia with high profile mainstream brands on them …

who is going to buy a crappy poor quality start up backyard board , over a high quality , better technology ,high profile branded import of the same price ???

the technology coming out of asia has also killed the emerging backyarder to …

entry level boards were traditionally the domain of the backyard up and coming designer , willing to discount because of inexperience and average quality , and the consumer wanting to pay less for something to get him started , being willing to go with a no name for a cheaper price …

now a consumer can have a brand name at good quality and the cheap price …

even the backyarders have been cut out of the picture …

the only way a backyarder will emerge out of the current quagmire , is to step up to improved tech and be a lead user testing and refining on a daily basis to gain an advantage over the larger producers …

if your backyarding in a technology that is 50 years behind , then all your doing is annoying your neighbours …

any potential opportunities for future backyarders will come in the field of advanced composites …

i personally know a guy who because of experimentation with new techniques , freely available to anyone with a bit of intelligence and intuition has now landed a job working in that field and is now learning stuff he never thought possible …

those opportunities can only happen for tinkerers and backyarders willing to try new stuff …

emerging composite board builders wont want , existing entrenched industry attitudes or behind the times backyarders as employees …

they will want the new generation of tinkerers and thinkers who are out there and doing it …

regards

BERT

13

very well stated bert…

backyard innovation?

trust me, backyard innovation is alive and well…

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/articles/0,15114,475872,00.html

The garage bond came full circle when Jobs established Pixar in 1986 with a former Disney animator; five years later he set up a deal with Disney to develop movies like Finding Nemo. Every garage entrepreneur hopes to leave the garage one day—but only physically. “‘Garage’ is a state of mind,” says Guy Kawasaki, a former Apple engineer who named his venture capital firm Garage Technology Ventures to celebrate its inspirational ideal. "It’s a rejection of the status quo. It’s ‘I don’t need dozens of engineers and marketers with MBAs to clean the competition’s clock.’ "

How’bout an engineer, with an MBA, tinkering in his garage, with a garage mindset?

What are his competitive chances?

14

bert

you’re on it as usual…

Quote:

the suits crunching the numbers who arent lead users and who dont benifit directly from a quality product , are strongly driven by profit , so saving a few dollars to change to a foam or resin that vastly decreases the performance or longterm durability of the product doesnt even get considered …

all decisions are based on the bottom line , chasing the margins …

The problem with every great idea with every “garage” genius is taking the idea beyond the garage to the open market.

Apple had Jobs who was not only an idea opportunist but also a great salesman/Marketeer.

Bill and Paul Allen an older mentor to help him move beyond the idea as well

Surftech has Randy

It’s so sad to see these great genius’s even Hewlett Packard and Jobs get driven right out of the company they gave birth to once wallstreet and the investors take over. If your non-public your totally controlled by your private investors and eventually when you do go public you’re driven or controlled by your major shareholders and when you go mega the government starts passing regulations to get their teeth in there too. Bottomline as every company knows money is power and power no matter what corrupts.

iRobot(Roomba/Scooba) is a good example of a curent backyarder turned player whether they survive or not is the question. Kind of like the difference of what happened to a Nick Woods, MP and even in some ways Occy once they got to the big leagues versus Slater or Curren.

A true backyarder or tinkerer is really stuck in a world of ideas and beliefs. It’s the marketeer, salesman or BS artist who sells the idea to the rest of the world. The evangelist and those that follow and drink the purple kool-aid drives the change beyond the backyard. Seth Godin’s “Selling a Purple Cow” is a manual.

The change is now whether you can see it from where you sit or not, it is happening like Greg and Bert have been warning it may be too late for many and just a great start for a few. It all depends on which side of the tidal wave you wish to place yourself.

The greatest danger to this industry from this wallstreet outsider’s viewpoint is not the lack of significant design innovation, but its total dependance on a rapidly depleting resource and the global change in who’s getting primary access to that resource (oil). Market pressures (cost of raw goods) will totally destroy any industry once high labor costs become the primary issue. It’s happened over and over here in the US and the lesson’s never learned as more and more industries and it’s happened to the surfboard manufacturing business as well… And yes there;s a big difference between the concept of manufacturing and backyard building…

Open eyes, open minds, and the willingness to accept change

Best wishes to all including you Bert and Roy

15

Some folks are more qualified tinkerers than others. Those who know something about the evolution of the surfboard realize that the process is an on going one – ride a wave paddle out for another one – it happens both in the large production shops of asia, in the backyards of New Zealand, Australia, Hawaii, the continental USA and is spreading world wide at a rapid rate. Man, by nature, lives much of his life in his imagination thus at thousands of different levels things continue to happen in the backyard. Once in a great while something really signicant comes about. It’s nearly always a collaboration resulting from the influence of those who are willing to share their experiences and gifts. Someone’s name may get pinned on it but each significant advancement results from and inclusive experience.

This sort of sharing happens at Swaylocks more than a little

bit. I’ll go on record here saying that this site along with the surfers who are willing take the risk of riding something experimental and the shapers and builders who are willing to extend the limits of their creation (less than the 10% that Bert refers too) are the reason the humble efforts that happen in my backyard amount to a little more than nothing.

Good Waves, Rich

16

OR!!!

…you can bi-pass all that shit and market/sell your stuff online…

hmm…say $1k/ea x 250units/yr = $250k top line…not a bad start…now imagine demand is ten fold or 2,500 units…year three maybe?

i think bert said it well,

some things need to be sold, some things sell themselves…

17

i’m not sure what i did this summer was inovation or not , but it was a step in my surfing —i built a 1940’s wood board by hand with no power tools to see just what it was like for them back then—was it smart? was it an inovation? was it a step forward? Hell, i don’t know–but it was fun to build and even funner to drag out into the surf and ride! those were iron surfers!

18

Nice thoughts Bert, I fully agree with you in every way. I guess the scary part is as you put it when large scale manufacturers with the marketing power actually start convincing the 10% as well. More and more of the larger companies with marketing clout are moving their manufacture and home grown innovative technology to Asia and the old facade of it being bad product etc will be erased over time.

In the future you may have no option but to make a board in your own backyard or wait a year on the waiting list for the remaining real craftsmen to get to your order. There’s not too many younger shapers around and we are all growing older. If you want to be a part of your board and I’d assume anybody that comes here is here for that reason whether they are making it themselves or simply want more knowledge towards input to the their next board. The oppurtunity to move past the backyard may never exist when better boards are coming in for less than the cost of materials to a small time operation.

A good friend told me once that in Japan the best Samurai swords that you can buy are cut from a computer are incredibly sharp and are of an amazing quality. They’ll cost you about $2000. If you want one from a Samurai sword master, it won’t be as accurate or as sharp and will probably have a fault or two (in japanese terms??); you will wait for about 2 years for it and will cost you about $20,000.

I for one hope that no matter how far down this track we progress that I can still be part of the romance of going to a stinky old factory and talking to a guy covered in dust that I surfed with that morning to drink beer and talk about refining my last board increment at a time. It’s romantic to me, I think the smell of Styrene evaporating from a filler coat is one of the greatest smells on earth! Yes it’s toxic, toxic to my bank account that is!

Riding PU thrusters is not a crime!

19

Yahoo came from a garage.

20

Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers. Voltaire

ooh i like that!

questions…kind of been my theme round here lately…

well this aint no yahoo but i have first hand knowledge of a local disposable medical device startup that was started in a garage…the product took off and the co grew like wildfire…five years later it was acquired for a cool $160M…i’d say that little five year project paid off eh?