installing FCS with poly and epoxy lam

General Discussion
1

hey everybody,

got a question. I am glassing my first epoxy board for a trip to puertorico. my question is i am using epoxy on a clark blank with slowhardner (RR EPOXY) could i use poly resin to sink the fcs plugs-leash plug??? then epoxy gloss the board like normal.

being the poly contact would be to the foam inside the board would it still be fine. my concern is the epoxy taking to long to set with SLOW and the foam soaking to much resin.

thanks for your help…

glassing the bottom tonight …i am stoked.

later on

surfs up in jersey

2

follow fcs install instructions, EXCEPT, use epoxy instead

of their resin, and wipe with ALCOHOL instead of ACETONE. Of course, let plug dry after wiping, and before installing. You can go the full route and mix the resin to their instructions by adding chopped glass and white pigment.

The instruction manual is online at foam-ez if you don’t have one handy - pretty thoroughly written.

3

Both ways will work.I used poly because I was used to working with it and knew the setup times.Epoxy may hold better.Good question though.

4

thanks for the advice guys,

I figured epoxy would hold better however would the fact of the long set time effect the FCS plugs, absorb too much into the foam???

I guess go with poly for a quick set and sand or epoxy for a stonger tighter fit (epoxy-epoxy bond)

thanks again

anymore advice outthere i am all ears

surfs up in jersey

5

I won’t say that pouring poly will not work for sure… Be very careful as epoxy will bond to epoxy, poly will bond to poly, and epoxy will bond to poly but poly will not bond to epoxy. (bond in the true sense of the word, chemically, that is). In the case of pouring poly into an epoxy board, you will get a mechanical bond by the texture roughness and shape of the void being poured. The mechanical bond is fair between the bottom of the board and the fin plug as the poly is “locking” into a hole. The mechanical bond is questionable on the “under-the-deck-skin rings” of the outer fins. The watertightness of the exposed epoxy/poly joint is questionable as well. Having seen these used and subsequently fail, I’d pour epoxy given the option… …Also, the plugs can be shot off hot as the heat is dissipated in the reaction (no humps on the deckside), whereas you may already know with poly if you shoot them too hot, the sander will hack those deckside bumps right off; stoked.

6

Try setting them with epoxy. I don’t have much problems with the foam soaking up all that much resin and I’m using EPS which I believe should soak more resin. Worst case scenario, you have to top off the holes the next day…

regards,

Håvard

7

Matbe you could prime the holes first before using epoxy?Just a thought I am not an epoxy Guru. RB

8

i dont like FCS installs with polyester cause of limited set time…I use slow cure epoxy and take my time to get it perfect. A little trick with FCS…use a scribe or other fine tool to remove the foam that is underneath the hole perimeter along the bottom lams circumference…you get a mo bettah mechanical bond to the bottom lam.

when are you going to PR?

9
Quote:
i dont like FCS installs with polyester cause of limited set time...I use slow cure epoxy and take my time to get it perfect. A little trick with FCS....use a scribe or other fine tool to remove the foam that is underneath the hole perimeter along the bottom lams circumference...you get a mo bettah mechanical bond to the bottom lam.

when are you going to PR?

This is described in the FCS installation manual.

10

there’s a manual???

i’llbedamned…

11
Quote:
there's a manual????

i’llbedamned…

http://www.foamez.com/pdfs/FCSManual.pdf

The FCS install manual is very well done.

12

thanks guys, I am just set plugs… using epoxy. set my room at 75. looks good so far. Its just kinda nerveracking when your doing something for the first time (epoxy that is)

as for PR i am leaving on the 27th of december till about the 16th of jan. Pretty stoked … first time going. alway passing through … never stayed.

later on

surfs up in jersey

13
Quote:

epoxy will bond to poly but poly will not bond to epoxy. (bond in the true sense of the word, chemically, that is).

Plus one shaper…This is a bit confusing and i was curious b/c i am tempted to do lam with epoxy (I like the slower setup) and hotcoat with poly (I like the fast setup). So the poly-epoxy bond is different depending on which resin is being used on top of the other??? This website which seems quite knowledgable http://www.surfersteve.com/epoxy.htm claims (6th paragraph) that epoxy boards have poly lam coats.

On the other hand, a friend of mine and long time board builder in Maryland told me today that an entire sandpaper scuffing of the lamination, and wiping of the entire lamination with alcohol is needed to remove the epoxy blush and allow the poly hot coat to bond properly. that suggests to me its a pretty questionable process, and not worth the gamble. Mitchell

14

Holy Brought back from the dead!!! (did you see the date of the last post?)

My hats off to you Mitchell for using the archives before this resurrection.

I still stand by my words of almost 3 years ago, you will not get a true chemical

bond. TRUE, I even did poly gloss coats and hot coats as far back as the late

1980’s, and they appeared to hold together.

At least at first. There is some mechanical bond, so the polyester will cling to

the epoxy, but as soon as the surface takes a solid impact, the outer poly layer

will start to debond. This is evidenced by a large silvery bubble at the point

of impact. Kind of similar to a chip/ding in a car windshield. Eventually the chip

will open up and hydraulic force will cause more debonding.

How do I know? Let’s just say I knew somebody who did it… …and the entire

bottom just about sheeted off the lamination.

WITH THAT SAID, you can make the poly hot coat work at least for a little while,

but for peace of mind, I’d think twice. You CAN use a ‘tie coat’. This is an intemediate

coat between the epoxy lam and the poly hot. We did this a couple of decades

ago and the boards held us quite well.

Also, I believe there is a newer hybrid polyester/vinylester resin which may chemically

bond.

I sound supportive of your ponderance, but really, I am not. Just be warned and

then get back to us with your results once you have used the board for a while…

Good Luck!

George

15

Howzit PlusOneShaper, Couldn’t have said it any better, poly will always delam and pop off of epoxy,seen it quite a few times.Aloha,Kokua

16

hmmm -

I’ve coarse sanded epoxy fill coats and glossed with poly numerous times and haven’t seen a flake off yet.

I broke one and left it out as a UV discoloration experiment. It’s been several years now and it’s turning brown but not nearly as bad as I would have expected.

It’s been subjected to various implements of torture but hammers and screwdrivers haven’t been able to do much other than general dings with minor chipping of the gloss. Under the poly gloss chipping, the epoxy fill coat appears whiter.

FWIW, I’ve done plenty of repairs of poly boards and seen various types of chipping of hotcoat and gloss on those as well. My worst bonding issues have been epoxy over blush or epoxy that has sat too long between coats and not been scuffed up.

I use epoxy and poly as a hobbyist so don’t have a horse in “that” race. I do know older epoxy formulas have been improved. I also know surfboard builders as a rule generally aren’t prone to following instructions.

To appreciate the material advantages of epoxy, specfic details need to be addressed. Poly has some advantages as well.

17

Using RR? gregs sells an additive (x-55 acelerator) to speed up cure times, heating the resin will also speed things up.

As long as your using polyurethane foam with an epoxy glass job you will be fine setting insets with poly resin and glossing over with epoxy. epoxy will stick to poly and your only glossing over 2mm of poly resin around the insert, which is also mixed with filler, the rest is in contact with the foam.

needless to say never, ever, ever use poly resin with emp.

I use epoxy for insters on epoxy boards, just watch the heat build up, tape wet towls under the incerts to reduce or pour in 2 stages. On one that gover reall hot I even filled the slot with clod water as a last resort, which paid off.

I’ve avoided doing a poly gloss over a epoxy hotcoat for the reasons above. I’m still working on getting a shine that pops like an expensive poly gloss resin, but its getting a lot better, almost there but not quite, the last board looks ghreat but need to see how it holds up over time.

18 
Howzit John, Most of the boards that the poly popped off were after the board flexed too much and came close to buckling, the epoxy flexed more than the poly. Almost every time the area that popped off was a round sectiom of poly.Aloha,Kokua
19
Quote:

I sound supportive of your ponderance, but really, I am not. Just be warned and

then get back to us with your results once you have used the board for a while…

Good Luck!

George

haha…pondering is one thing…flaky boards are another. I’ll stick with the tried and true.

20

Hi Mike -

Funny thing is that even on the board that broke? No flaking - on either side of the break… deck or bottom. I assume it must have flexed like mad before it broke. Again - coarse sanding before gloss coat.

FWIW it was a Clark Foam blank. Maybe repetitive flexing of an EPS board takes it’s toll?

Some epoxy hardeners are amine based. Newer “non-blush” types are cycloalphiatic. Some hardeners have formaldehyde and nonyl phenol. I’m no chemist but I think we can assume that not all epoxies (especially hardeners) are the same chemically. Based on that assumption, it’s hard for me to say they all have the same bonding characteristics with poly gloss.

Anyway, I’m not sure that because it has happened that it’s a given it’s always going to happen. I hope not anyway - I have epoxy boards out there done exactly that way.

Certain epoxies have been developed that are specifically formulated to allow poly hot coats. System Three SB-112 for instance, states specifically that it can be used for that purpose. I wouldn’t paint all epoxies with the same brush so to speak.

Recommended Uses:

SB-112 is specially formulated for use in building and repairing sail and surfboards over polystyrene cores. It can also be used for coating and composite laminating. SB-112 is unique in that polyester resins and gel coats may be bonded to it without the use of “tie-coats”. We recommend that polyester be bonded onto freshly sanded SB-112 epoxy within 48 hours of cure.