Is flat fast, faster, fastest ??

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Measuring rocker curvature I do with my EYES.

You can only ‘see’ the first derivate of the curvature. There is no way the human eye can see that a curve is smooth to second derivate continuity (which was very apparent when I started opening some of my designs in Shape3D…) However, if the curve looks smooth it will most likely be smooth in the first derivate of the curve which is most likely good enough, I wouldn’t know. However the actual curvature being smooth vs. only looking smooth may be the difference between a magic board and a dog for all I know.

regards,

Håvard

I think some shapers really have the straight line speed down. Skip Fry would be one. Super flat rockers, super fast down the line, catch waves easy.

That’s the easiest type of design to make. The Vanilla of surfboard rocker. Just about anyone can make one. Most surfers would be challenged to ride that in a steep curvy barreling face however (havent seen too many of those at Pipe).

Those boards sell mostly by retro vibe, art, and cosmetics. Wouldnt be my first choice in barrels. Could be in small, lineup fast point waves.

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Measuring rocker curvature I do with my EYES.

However, if the curve looks smooth it will most likely be smooth in the first derivate of the curve which is most likely good enough,

That I agree with…pretty much it.

Just to illustrate the point of interpolating with few sample measurements. These are bezier curves through the same four sample points. The black curve is the bezier with the least curvature.

I don’t know, but I’ve been playing with some rockers and I’m surprised how very small changes in rocker make very big changes in curvature. I think that the curvature affects water flow a great deal. Changing the curvature in the entry rocker for instance may make a board much faster and paddle better and you may have the exact same rocker measured at nose and 1’ from nose. IMHO curvature in Shape3D and BoardCAD is one step further when it comes to analyzing board design.

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I think some shapers really have the straight line speed down. Skip Fry would be one. Super flat rockers, super fast down the line, catch waves easy.

That’s the easiest type of design to make. The Vanilla of surfboard rocker. Just about anyone can make one. Most surfers would be challenged to ride that in a steep curvy barreling face however (havent seen too many of those at Pipe).

Those boards sell mostly by retro vibe, art, and cosmetics. Wouldnt be my first choice in barrels. Could be in small, lineup fast point waves.

I agree, they don’t go off the top really well either. I suspect they are popular in some places because of the rolling surf or mushy waves. Easy to catch waves on and fast. They do cutback really well. For sure mostly for smaller waves.

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That’s the easiest type of design to make. The Vanilla of surfboard rocker. Just about anyone can make one. Most surfers would be challenged to ride that in a steep curvy barreling face however (havent seen too many of those at Pipe).

Like Bonga at Pipe in “single fin:yellow”?

The early 70’s Bonzers - from when I was a Bing guy - where the fastest boards I’ve ridden for pure down-the-line speed. They had fairly flat rockers nose to tail, and those deep venturis. They went straight really fast, but they were a bear to turn.

I remember thinking Terry Fitzgerald was the fastest guy I’d ever seen on a wave (maybe next to BK). His boards were really flat out the tail. I tried boards like Terry’s, and hated them.

There are many variables to tapping into the waves power zone, so I don’t think there is ONE answer. You may be able to identify the world’s fastest surfer (Roy?), but that wouldn’t insure that their board design is fastest. It would be how they managed the assets of the board on a particular wave, on a particular day.

You really need to consider the shape and size of the wave when looking for the magic “speed rocker”. There is no part of any wave I’ve ridden that was flat, so a totally flat board will drag. Conversely, too much rocker will push water and drag too. The power zone on some waves is high up the face. On others it can be down a bit further. If the wave rolls for awhile before it breaks, you can get in early and quick turns aren’t that important. If the wave jacks and you freefall on takeoff, you need some control to set an edge and get into place quickly.

I’ve always… OK not always, but since I started thinking about this… liked boards with a low entry rocker and more tail rocker… a continuous, and increasing rocker from nose to tail. If I need to make quick turns, I do it off the tail. Speeding down the line is off the nose. Because the rocker changes from nose to tail, I can play with my body english to find the right “fit” to the part of the wave I’m riding.

Another thing that seems to keep coming up (sorry) is whether you can go faster by going straight or by linking turns. My opinion is that you can generate more speed by turning than you can by glide. You can use the wave’s power band to whip you into a frenzy. We’ve probably beaten this subject to death.

The best shapers I know don’t pay such close attention to the numbers. They just know it when they see it. It’s the relationship between the template, the rocker, the bottom contours, the rails, the fins, the surfer, and the waves they’ll be riding. Wil Jobson can look at a board and tell you exactly what the numbers are. His eyes are that accurate. He doesn’t need tools to tell him what his eyes do. Jim Phillips said in another thread that he doesn’t measure rocker. Brewer measures at the nose and tail, and everything else is by feel. The advent of shaping machines and numeric controls allow us to accurately map the numbers, but in the end it’s how all the elements work together.

After 43 years, i can look at a board and know pretty closely how it will work for me. I don’t think about the numbers… I think about how it will fit to the organic surface I subject it to.

This thread is interesting, but you just can’t separate the features or functions of rocker and outline, for turn performance, hold or speed.

yep… and surfer… and rails… and foil… and bottom contours… and thickness… and wave.

This is why the techno-weenies can’t identify the magic numbers. It’s a combination of many factors, used in a changing and organic environment, by differing riders. There is NO SUCH THING as magic numbers. It’s nice to theorize about this stuff, but it boils down to what works for each individual. That for me is part of the beauty of surfing, and what makes a magic board “magic”.

Yep, all those and what you had for breakfast. For sure, bottom, outline, rail, rocker, flex, and fins. And wave. Almost too many variables to figure together. But people do. A lot of stuff working together. People have brains for just these kinds of “problems.” :wink:

The hydrodynamica.com trailer footage of Rasta and Daniel Thomson taking very high very hollow very fast lines on very short low rockered Van Straalen and Pavel twin keel fish with traditional wide swallow tails (and toed-in, single-foiled fins, bottom concaves) is enlightening though. (They do good turns too)

What Kendall said.

Yeah that segement in SFY was trippy…you can see the board just doesnt want to fit in there…but he kept charging, taking a beating and finally got over the hump. Ah yes the glory of it all.

Something I always do before starting a new project…I ride my boards until Im really intimite with them, then make any adjustments by doing a lot of eyeballin. I’ll stack 2 or 3 boards, eye a lot…sleep on it…eye the next day. Sometimes after a good rest you see a bit more. One of the benefits of non-production work…you can take your sweet time.

The bottom one is an oldy but still the original majic1. Beaten up, but still rides great…it feels so smooth like riding on a cushion of air…learned a lot from that board.

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Blakestah,

What is standard worldwide is a method which cannot measure rates of curvature, this means that the standard method is seriously flawed when comparing boards of different length. …

Roy, I find that arguing people should not draw comparisons using the techniques used by 99% of the people in the world to be a little infantile and pedantic. There is nothing wrong with the standard method for measuring rocker. hth

Blakestah, listen carefully please

  1. It is quite simply IMPOSSIBLE to determine the rate of curvature in a surfboard using the standard method

  2. The standard method is thus useless for comparing rocker in boards of differing length

  3. The standard method is useful for recording and reproducing rockers, and can be used to compare rockers on boards of the same length.

  4. Measuring the rate of curvature is a simple process which can be added to our rocker measuring toolbox, it should not replace the standard method, rather it complements it

I would have thought that you would find a comparison of various rates of curvature in different boards to be interesting, and am surprised that instead of understanding what it the tool does, you choose instead to start making personal comments. … it isn’t about personalities it’s about geometry !

.

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Measuring rocker curvature I do with my EYES. To see ‘it’, requires that I stand about 15-20ft away from the board, side view of course.

Not very useful for comparing the rate of curvature in the tail of a 6 footer in the USA with the rate of curvature in the tail of a 12 footer in New Zealand.

I am proposing a simple test which we can use to compare actual rocker curvature online, with an amount of curve per foot, naturally this won’t replace the eyeball method or the standard method, but it would be a useful addition to clarity of communcation. . . . all we get on rocker threads is everyone’s personal homilies, nothing could be vaguer. . . .

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The early 70’s Bonzers - from when I was a Bing guy - where the fastest boards I’ve ridden for pure down-the-line speed. They had fairly flat rockers nose to tail, and those deep venturis. They went straight really fast, but they were a bear to turn.

No attempt at speed measurement

No rocker measurement

Imagine if the Americas cup was decided by everyone sitting around telling each other stories about how fast their boat is… . it would be ludicrous.

Bonzers are unlikely to be unusually fast due to the toe in on the runners, and by the way, no bonzer ever used a venturi. . . concave bottoms are not ‘venturis’

Sadly, we seem to be once again descending into the dim world of myth and legend

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“I usually measure rocker in millimetres per foot”

Hi Roy -

What I’d like to know is how you ended up with such a mish mash of measuring systems? I.E. why contaminate the beauty of the metric system by introducing an imperial unit like foot? Why not keep it pure by using decimeter or whatever?

Heh ho, JM! Mashups are what made Amnerica great!

Mix everything up!

Brew some bloddy surfboards!

How about a physical or a computer model of the following.

Imagine a board ‘parked’ in the face of a barrel.

Is anybody looking at how the board intersects with the wave surface? and how the water would flow around the surface of the board.Imagine at its most simplistic an example of a curved surface (face of wave). position the board into that face. As a first step you could actually do this by bending a sheet of hardboard etc to be the wave face.Cut slot to insert board at trim angle/position.Fill round the board to be flush. Would this tell us more about the design of boards than isolating rocker foil and planshape. Take this to include the depth a board resting in the face then you could come up with a 3dshape which corresponds to the shape of the board in the wave. By looking at these shapes and looking at the water flow arround these shapes we could perhaps get a picture of what is needed in board design. Sounds kind of daft/simplistic but I’ve been trying to think more in terms of water flowing around the surface of a board rather than starting with a planshape, adding rocker and then matching the foil.A board when surfed is moving throught the water rather than on top. Anybody with resonable 3d computor modeling could do a simple ‘static’ wave shape,park a board in its face and present the intersection as an entity or solid. Next step move the board through a realistic curve. How does the shape change? next step continually change the shape of the wave. Next step…

Err am I mad?

Mark

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“I usually measure rocker in millimetres per foot”

Hi Roy -

What I’d like to know is how you ended up with such a mish mash of measuring systems? I.E. why contaminate the beauty of the metric system by introducing an imperial unit like foot? Why not keep it pure by using decimeter or whatever?

John, my tail rockers are so flat that I found it more convenient to measure in mm, basically I always use Metric and Imperial mixed up, just a personal foible, if anyone is kind enough to do some measurements using Imperial only, then it’s easy to convert.

By the way the method I am using actually gives rocker per 6 inches.

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No attempt at speed measurement

No rocker measurement

I didn’t care… I was a teenager getting free boards for surfing them. I took what I was given. I learned terms like “more” and “less”. I didn’t pay close attention to numbers. I still don’t.

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Imagine if the Americas cup was decided by everyone sitting around telling each other stories about how fast their boat is.... . it would be ludicrous.

Good thing I’m not a surfboard racer. I’m not the fastest. I do inefficient swoopy lines, just for my own pleasure. I don’t race in surfing or sex.

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no bonzer ever used a venturi. . . concave bottoms are not 'venturis'

That’s what they called them in the early 70’s… plus they were pinched in much more in the middle of the concaves. I was told they were “venturis that speed the water up by compressing it through this narrow part”… obviously inaccurate, but that was the hype at the time. Plus… I was 14.

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Sadly, we seem to be once again descending into the dim world of myth and legend

What’s wrong with myth and legend. The winners tell the stories.