isolation, or influence?

ok, i have a feeling this is going to stir up the peace here a little, but that is not my intention.

my intention is to seek advice from a community that i grown to deeply respect.

so here we go…

as a young - in terms of time, not necessarily age(knowing the basics and materials, and having satisfied customers) - surfboard maker, is it better to be in a circle of influence, as in an environment where there are other builders, or to be in an environment where you are without influence?

the pro of influence would be the sharing of ideas with like minded(hopefully open minded) persons.

the con of influence would be, everything stays the same-peer pressure.

the pro of isolation would be freedom to experiment .

the con would be no one to bounce ideas off of.

so what would you prefer?

If you have no clue about basic designs principles the being isolated might be bad. With influence you can learn from others mistakes, or make great improvements to other people’s concept, theories designs. Influence all the way.

no one is perfect, without other people to spot the flaws that you can’t see, you wont be able to continue getting better and better…

and more people more ideas, yes more shitty ideas as well, but more great ideas too…

peer pressure is for the weak, if you beleive in what you want/think then go with it…

Ant

thanks for the input, this is why i love this place.

Interesting question… It seems like much innovation comes from those willing to think outside of the accepted dogma of a discipline. Look at roy stewart, for example. I won’t say that his stuff is necessarily better than anything else, but in the absence of anyone telling him what to build, he has come up with a unique board building method that I’ve not seen anywhere else. Another example would be Solomonson and his surfmats. Excepting some pool-toy manufacturers, he is basically peerless. Having little existing framework for how a surfmat “should” be, he has innovated to create a very well-developed and refined product on his own.

On the flipside, without some type of peer group, one’s isolated innovation stays just that… Isolated. If nobody is interested in hearing what you have to say, or worse, you don’t even have anyone to share your ideas with, then what value are they except to yourself?

That’s speaking in broad generalities, of course.

As a surfboard shaper, I think it would be of value to any “young” shaper to get as much influence as possible until absolutely proficient in all aspects of surfboard design theory before setting off to be innovative. I’m all for mind-shaping some wild new shape, but without the foundation that years of experience brings (and I’ll never have), it is really just an intellectual exercise… Or maybe an experiment in sculpting. A shaper might shape something really new and effective out of sheer inspiration, but without the experience and foundation to interpret why it works as it does, replicate and refine it, it is of little value as anything other than an effective oddity.

I think the dogmatic, peer-pressure part of surfboard shaping is unfortunate, but can be avoided. If your customer is some young stylin’ ripper who knows he wants a thruster just like AI, by all means, give it to him. If it is someone who simply knows what he wants a board to do, and is willing to work with you, then you can collaborate to innovate.

What would I prefer?

I think I have the best of all worlds here. I haven’t ever had anyone breathing down my neck telling me how to shape a board, I’ve never been told I’m doing something wrong (even though I’ve made plenty of mistakes)… But I’ve always had sways to come back to when I had a question, or needed some advice, or wanted to bounce an idea off of someone. Really I don’t think a person could ask for a better balance of isolation/influence.

From Captains Courageous, by Rudyard Kipling;

Quote:

"That’s what I got. Now I’m coming to what I didn’t get. It won’t

sound much of anything to you, but I don’t wish you to be as old as

I am before you find out. I can handle men, of course, and I’m no

fool along my own lines, but–but–I can’t compete with the man who

has been taught! I’ve picked up as I went along, and I guess it

sticks out all over me."

If you’re working with and around others, maybe starting out as an apprentice, think of what you learn and what you have: the distillation of thousands and thousands of man-hours of experience. It’s true in any trade or craft or skill, the guy that’s been taught has it all over somebody who’s tried to pick it up on their own.

While if you’re starting off on your own, you have nothing to go with but your own experience. Your chances of accomplishing anything that’s really useful, new or interesting are just about nil. More like you’ll just repeat other’s mistakes.

And hey, isn’t that what this is all about? The purpose of this whole mass of bouncing electrons we call Swaylocks?

doc…

Influence. We all stand on someone elses shoulders. The challenge is to pick the correct shoulders to stand on.

bills righton the mark. we all learn from others experiances success and failures.leave the peer pressure to the school kids someone doesnt like what you do thats their problem not yours if your happy with it then its all good .

All of my best ideas have come from isolation…but then I later find out that most of them have already been done in the 1960’s. It makes me wonder where I’d be if I continued where they left off instead of starting at square one.

For me, living outside of the surf community in Washington State, I am still able to create freely without outside influence my hollow boards...
I think that's agood thing...
When I first showed this picture
of my first board, with the skins on the frame without any rails, to a group of experienced surfing friends, I got a look of "What are you doing?...Has he gone crazy...?"...
I was creating "outside of the box" and the reactions to what I was doing reflected that...
I could sense the doubt others had...On I went, and followed my vision...
I surprised a lot of doubters...Including my wife...
For some people, creating in "the wilderness" is the only way...
I'm definately in that group...
I wouldn't have it any other way...

Quote:

is it better to be in a circle of influence, as in an environment where there are other builders, or to be in an environment where you are without influence?

This is a fluid concept…many variables including just what you want to get out of it for yourself - for example are you looking for some commercial success? You get the drift there…

Being around others of a like mind and goals can be a gratifying experience. In art you hear about schools of thought, or movements. Look through various histories and see where pockets of like-minded people rise above the rest…partly talent but I would offer there is continued motivation at work there too.

It may be harder to see in surfing, a hidebound endeavour in almost any era. There is the “hull crew”, who eventually seemed to burst into flames of hate right here at Swaylock’s, or the “Fish crew” who so memorably, or publicaly, did the same at the 1972 World Surfing Championships. Or for another type of example there is just the basic shortsighted competition in semi-closed markets.

thanks to all who replied.

definately some excellent advice - as always on sways.

definately a tough decision to make.

thanks again,

robert

Just one more:

There’s the story of an inventor who wanted to be completely free of outside influence, so he’d be able to create something absolutely new.

He lived like a hermit and worked day and night to come up with an invention that would change the world.

Finally, when he was an old man, he emerged from his isolation excitedly announcing that he’d built one of the most revolutionary devices in history: something that would truly change society.

He then unveiled a very primitive typewriter. Many years too late.

Personally, I agree with those who say that we can save much time in the learning curve by allowing ourselves to be taught by others. But we can still be creative. Creativity is in many ways a Choice. We can decide on our own to climb out of the box to see what’s there.

Doug

Ahmmm- I believe I can make your life simpler;

You see, you’ve already made your decision. You are, after all, posting the question here in this somewhat non-traditional community, no? Including how-tos right up to video demonstraions, debates about this and that, more influences than you can shake a stick at.

here ya be

doc…

I really enjoyed working in the environment that i did early in my career, i got to see so many different ideas being brought to life, sanding and glassing here in honolulu at a large glassing shop, now i work by myself… i really enjoyed , and am enjoying both…

Isolation can also be a state of mind.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

As the typewriter analogy illustrates… no point in reinventing the wheel, especially if yours isn’t even as good as the modern standard.

Stay in touch and build out from there.

Hi Rob!

As John Donne said: "No man is an Island, entire of it self "

P.S. - Are you hanging around the island? Please, email me soon.

Nativeson

I think you answered your own question with your sign off quote. Really, in the end…just have some #/?"!! fun!

Reminds me of Tom Morey’s quote when asked to remark on the state of surfboard design,

“When the sun’s out and the surf’s up - who gives a rats ass!”

From a man who has always felt free to experiment.

Pray for surf.

Pete

"more influences than you can shake a stick at.

here ya be "

lol, ok, you got me…