Kevin Casey

Here’s a link for you… http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/mpaine/thesis.html#flume1

John/Kevin: There is an out of print book written by James Kinstle. Surboard Design and Construction (copyright 1975), Natural High Express Publishing Co., Manhatten Beach, Ca. He collaborated with Rick McHale, a friend and early mentor of Herb’s. It seems that Kinstle wrote this as an undergraduate thesis of sorts and the first chapters feature “Surfboard Dynamics” I believe he is now a noted PhD. in his field. It shows up on E-bay from time to time in a blue softcover format, as low as $25.00 but on up to $50.00. The surfboard design and building chapters are rich with some classic shapes and shapers input. There are some detailed scale drawings of fin templates, rail outlines and board templates from the period with featured shapers like Rick McHale, Pat “Gumby” Ryan, Steve Lis, Tony Staples and Bob Moore. At one point I xeroxed a lot of this book in order to save the hard copy which was falling apart. If you want it let me know. Tom S.>>> Here’s a link for you…

Here’s a link for you… Thanks. I’ve actually communicated with Paine, he sent me his thesis a while back, regretably it didn’t have all the data he generated. It is an interesting thesis, and in my initial search for sources on planing it was one of the first I came across on the web. Its a great introduction to planing and has got some great references for further exploration. The problem is that Paine (and justifiably so) really only deals with a classical approach to planing, i.e. a relatively low tau. Also, the approach to flow is from ‘bow to stern’, or nose to tail. I wish I had the resources to test my ideas, I don’t. They are likely wrong on any number of levels. (Actual tank tests would obviously be of great value.) Thanks for the tip though. … A Clash of Worlds? By the way, in fluids (dynamics) there are roughly two approaches to a problem, quite often only one is feasible, but often productive in terms of producing some useful engineering results. The theory, used by Paine, and basically used by many engineers in the field of planing theory (of those I have incountered) use an approach know as Integral Analysis. This is in contrast to Differential Analysis. Differential analysis literally identifies a moving fluid particle and equations are developed, and the properties of that particle tracked. This approach is often almost impossible, if not very difficult. But there’s seems to be little doubt that when its done right, its extremely rich in results and potentially very productive. Integral Analysis sort of identifies whole chunks of fluid for tracking, and it is particularly useful when other constraints such as well defined boundaries, through which the fluid cannot pass can be identified. Integral Analysis, as I mentioned can often provide the analyst with some basic engineering results, but it can also leave out a lot of detail and lead to wrong conclusions especially when the results are raised to the level general principle. My approach has basically been along these lines, i.e. Integral. I have no intention at the moment to attempt to track fluid particles, but only to understand what might be going on in fairly rough terms, and hopefully develop some potentially useful insight (in an engineering sense.) Admittedly, it could turn out to be a bust. At the moment I believe that a large part of surfing is planing, and refering to the original diagram, the tau can range from a very high number at the nose to a relatively low number at the tail. That the reason that you’ve got to deal with multiple taus, so to speak, is because the flow is not really from nose to tail, but has a significant rail to rail component. Is this wrong? Geee… lets see, where’s the best place to go on the Web to find a bunch of people who have spent a hell of a lot of time trying to understand such things, or at least watching surfing, or surf themselves, and who will not hesitate to tell me if my ideas are ‘whack’?.. mmmm… Swaylocks? This site is great! I’ve already made any number of corrections to my ideas, based in part on just seeing my ideas in print, or having to put them to print (knowing others will be viewing them), or having to illustrate them,… but also by reading the comments of others. Anyway, thanks again for the tip. Kevin Reference Note: If you want another interesting reference on planing, try and get a hold of Du Cane’s “High Speed Small Craft” (1974). (There may have been a second edition.) Its been a while, but I believe he develops the planing theory, or sketches its development (… using the kind of Integral approach mentioned above.)

John/Kevin:>>> There is an out of print book written by James Kinstle. Surboard Design > and Construction (copyright 1975), Natural High Express Publishing Co., > Manhatten Beach, Ca. He collaborated with Rick McHale, a friend and early > mentor of Herb’s. It seems that Kinstle wrote this as an undergraduate > thesis of sorts and the first chapters feature “Surfboard > Dynamics” I believe he is now a noted PhD. in his field. It shows up > on E-bay from time to time in a blue softcover format, as low as $25.00 > but on up to $50.00. The surfboard design and building chapters are rich > with some classic shapes and shapers input. There are some detailed scale > drawings of fin templates, rail outlines and board templates from the > period with featured shapers like Rick McHale, Pat “Gumby” Ryan, > Steve Lis, Tony Staples and Bob Moore. At one point I xeroxed a lot of > this book in order to save the hard copy which was falling apart. If you > want it let me know.>>> Tom S. Nice reference, and its one I haven’t read. Sadly the money in surfing is not in surfboards, but in the cultural artifacts that wrap themselves around it. If the money was in boards, its likely that some big institute with a brace of researchers, with lots of funding, would have already answered most of the big questions. Part of me wishes the money was in surfboards (I can’t speak for all, but for me, I wouldn’t mind seeing shapers/designers make more money), but another part of me is sort of happy that it remains on the periphery of academic interest… and in the hands of those who actually love the stuff, and would do it even if it they couldn’t make a penny from it, or add another prefix to their name. The point is, finding a local library who sees collecting or holding on to such volumes as worthwhile is rare. Kevin

John/Kevin:>>> There is an out of print book written by James Kinstle. Surboard Design > and Construction (copyright 1975), Natural High Express Publishing Co., > Manhatten Beach, Ca. He collaborated with Rick McHale, a friend and early > mentor of Herb’s. It seems that Kinstle wrote this as an undergraduate > thesis of sorts and the first chapters feature “Surfboard > Dynamics” I believe he is now a noted PhD. in his field. It shows up > on E-bay from time to time in a blue softcover format, as low as $25.00 > but on up to $50.00. The surfboard design and building chapters are rich > with some classic shapes and shapers input. There are some detailed scale > drawings of fin templates, rail outlines and board templates from the > period with featured shapers like Rick McHale, Pat “Gumby” Ryan, > Steve Lis, Tony Staples and Bob Moore. At one point I xeroxed a lot of > this book in order to save the hard copy which was falling apart. If you > want it let me know.>>> Tom S. Tom, Hate to horn in, but if you are extending the offer to the virtual community I would dig whatever sections you have copied. Send me your address and I will send you the $$ for the copying charge and your fee in advance. If you know where the author is working now I would like to have that information as well as I feel it only right to send him a royalty as well since I don’t believe this is public information in a Uni stack somewhere. Mahalo, Magoo

Tom,>>> Hate to horn in, but if you are extending the offer to the virtual > community I would dig whatever sections you have copied. Send me your > address and I will send you the $$ for the copying charge and your fee in > advance. If you know where the author is working now I would like to have > that information as well as I feel it only right to send him a royalty as > well since I don’t believe this is public information in a Uni stack > somewhere.>>> Mahalo,>>> Magoo>>> Ditto here Tom. I have been looking for a copy of this book. I’d appreciate whatever literature you have copied off this book. Let me know how much its worth for your time and effort. Email me at: Thanks FD