Know Your Flow

Surf mats are a blast. I don’t own one, but I did surf one for a few rides (way back when?)

Actually, I’d direct you to an extended discussion about mats which I had following my ‘Rocket Science’ series, but both are no longer available in the archives (they predate the current archives.) A lot was lost, or simply ceased to be available when Swaylocks upgraded its software a while back. Including me, I had to re-register. Which was just as well, it gave me the opportunity to upgrade my nonsense and re-spew, or in memory of the late great Carlin, re-write my act, and take another shot at ‘open-mic’ at Swaylocks. Anyway, you seem to have touched on the main points - mats are neat.

kc

That photo posted by Mike Daniel makes my head spin.

WTF?? O.

 

 Please note, this is a rewrite.

I felt need to do so, mainly because of OTaylor's (completely reasonable) complaint regarding the magnitude of the forces involved. A point which I managed to bury so deeply in the post, that its true emphasis is likely to have been missed.

I should have led with a magnitude argument, placing the arguments regarding 'hold' or 'suction' phenomena versus all the other forces acting on the rail (and all the other wetted surfaces) in perspective. In a nutshell, there are a lot of forces acting on the wetted rails, particularly on the waveside wetted rails, all of which have substantial magnitude. And aside from the surfer's action via his posture etc. to counterbalance them they are all acting to 'displace the rail' and rotate the board out of the wave.

In the “Hydrofoils and Lift” thread, lalabrooklyn described a curious effect which he reasonably attributed to his rear rails ( see thread for his description and a picture of his board ). Also, surffoils recently started a thread “Design misconceptions and urban myths”  in which he directs the reader to another site which offers an interesting discussion of design elements etc., among which is the role of rail profile. (By the way, there's also a boatload of similar discussions to be found in the Swaylocks Archives – they're just not as organized.)

 

As the surfer moves transversely across the wave face his wave side rail is interacting with the flow in the wave face, which is both upward and forwards. But its also interacting with a transverse flow, that is the flow parallel to the rail by virtue of the boards transverse motion across the face. This transverse motion will, in a manner similar to planing tend to displace the rail from the face -i.e. pushing it out of the face.

 

However, at the same time the wave is flowing forward, and this flow will try to also carry the rail in that direction. But the rail (obviously connected to the rest of the board and effectively the surfer too) has inertia and must be accelerated. But there will be a lag in its ability to do so, hence the rail will appear to sink into the wave. This is basically the same effect that I described in my initial post.

 

The degree to which it sinks is not only a function of inertia, but also of the extent of the surface presented to the flow. A larger surface for a given inertial (mass or weight of surfboard and surfer) the less it will appear to sink into the wave. Razor thin rails appearing to sink more that fatter rails.

 

What about the differential forward flow? This, and if there is any 'holding' or 'sucking' phenomena involved, are minor in comparison to the above described forces and effects. And to go a step further, I'm inclined to place 'holding' and 'sucking' at the bottom of the list in terms of magnitude.

  

But I have to admit that in the end, at present I have absolutely no proof (in hand, at least at the moment) as to which of these effects is dominating. But the stickiness of fluids and holding effects tend to have upper limits in terms of force, whereas a purely mechanic effect as suggested by this consequences of the transverse, forward, and even upward flows really don't, at least their range can be pretty large.

 

The differential forward flow also has implications in contributing to the torques that the board is subjected to. A given rail and bottom leading itself to being rolled out of the face, more so than another.

 

 

Back to my rewrite apology... there no excuse for initially screwing this post up. My apologies. 

 

kc

 

 

 

After thinking about it some more, I decided I best come clean. I see the rail holding issue as one of perception – its not about hold, but about torques and moments and how they are perceived by the rider.

 

I am truly getting lazy. This post as well as my initial post really could have used some diagrams, but I'm sort of diagram burnt-out. Also, I was being unfair by not addressing the mechanical phenomena which is really at the heart of this particular application – moments and torques.

 

The actions of the surfer, via adjustments in his posture and surfboard orientation tend to keep a rail on the face. Remember that the waveside rail is exposed to another flow, a transverse flow which is more or less parallel to the rail, which like the forces of planing will tend to push it out of the face (with great force.)

 

My interpretation of stickiness or suction complaint, has had to do with the effects of the way the forward component of the velocity of the flow on the wave face sets up unbalanced torques or moments on the rail.

 

Think of what that forward differential flow is doing, its as if someone was grabbing your board by the rail and trying to rotate it, in this case clockwise. But there is no grabbing, just differential 'pushing'. If you're both being pushed out of the face by the above mentioned transverse flow, and rotated clockwise by an imbalance torque from the forward differential flow, the net effect is that your rail 'feels' as though its not 'holding' onto the wave face very well. If you can balance that torque, the effect is less, and you might believe that your rail is 'holding' better. 

 

Is there any real 'holding' going on which can be directly attributed to suction or stickiness? Perhaps, at least for stickiness, but I'm not inclined to see it as mechanically as important at least relative to all the other mechanic effects. The transverse flow is pretty strong, and so is the forward differential flow.

 

My apologies. I knew I should have introduced torques and moments, the moment I posted. It was on my mind all day – my apologies.

 

kc

Sometimes all it needs to be is FUN!

It must be flat, windy and cold. Thats some deeeeep shit. I need to read it all a few more times. Then I may agree to read it all again. 

Can you put in 100 words or less. Better yet could ya Tweet it so I can understand the question. 

Got to get up early and this could keep me up all night. 

 

If you have ever been caught in that suck up and then slapped...you'd never forget.

Had a wave hit me while duck diving too late and it stripped my wetsuit to my waist. Felt like I got hit by Ronnie Lott.

your extensive wave dynamic posits = board design needs to be rethought out. 

Board design has been consistently rethought on a non-stop basis since Tom Blake.  Every permutation of rails rockers, fins, , templates, has been  and continues to be exhaustively tested from the spaceships of Tomo to the spherical rocker boards of Stretch.

With the growing pile of BIG $$ in pro surfing, there is a non-stop effort by some of the best shapers in the world to provide their riders with any competitive edge possible - only it’s not to be found, because all of the decades of testing and refinement that have led to today’s high performance rockets have all reached the same conclusions on board design , so much so that the pro boards lined up on the beach from a dozen shapers look almost like clones of each other.

As iterated earlier, there is no revolution in board design forthcoming based on some new perception of flow dynamics that has not been extensively and exhaustively considered and tested by the worlds best shapers.  The functional design algorithms have long been identified, and ongoing evolution of board functionality will continue to be incremental,

The revolution lies within the surfers vision of what is possible, and the will and confidence to go for it.  The board itself is less critical.

It’s why when he gets bored, Jamie O’Brien rides super hollow Backdoor barrels on a Costco foam surfboard which defies all current design paradigms - because he can.

 

 

 

 

“… revolution…”? Who knows, but I would be surprise if one happened.

“…exhaustively considered and tested…” That’s quite a statement, unless you’ve got a complete understanding of the dynamics evolved; and if you do, great.  

But as for the possibility of incremental change based on flow dynamics, sure, why not? Rethinking the function of some design element in the light of a different functional interpretation, sure, why not?

Ultimately however, if you don’t care about this kind of stuff or feel it serves no purpose, or is old news, etc… , that’s great, to each his own. Also, if you’re confident that “…the world’s best shapers.” are looking into it all for you, or have already done so, that’s great too.

Nice picture. I like the way it captures the rides balance (both his feet on the waveside of the stringer)- he seems to be counter-balancing a torque. 

kc

 

[quote="$1"] (both his feet on the waveside of the stringer)  [/quote]

 

A common occurance on ANY large walled up wave.

A common occurance on any wave - depending on where you are on the face and what you are trying to do. Which is a problem given that it is a still picture, Nevertheless, I'm inclined to believe that, in this case, the rider is not trying to climb or pull off a turn, but trying to maintain a transverse line; and the magnitude and duration of the torques involved has forced the rider to do more than just temporarily 'lean into the face' or make some less obvious shift in posture.

kc

[quote="$1"]

 ...trying to maintain a transverse line... [/quote]

That's how it's done.

kc,

when you lay out such lengthy diatribes, the assumption is you’re trying to stimulate dialog…a process that includes differing thoughts and some push back, the normal process of discussion.  Much more interesting then monologues of ‘ground breaking revelations’ launched to be swallowed whole without chewing…

And as to relying on shapers ‘to look into it for me’…yep, doing it for all of us, trying new things, getting rider feedback including their own, add the wins to the secret sauce and onward… 

In the end, however, it’s just surfing.  Wax up, paddle out, ride a few and have some grins…

 

Exactly? But that doesn't explain how the imbalanced torques arise, nor how a given design feature might be being used to deal with them.

 

The wave is always trying to 'roll' you [the surfer] – regardless of what you're trying to do on or with the wave. Its a consequence of the nature of flows set up on the face, and for that matter, throughout the whole waveform itself. The reason is because of that differential flow that I first posted about.

 

A push doesn't necessarily roll or rotate something. There has to be an imbalance of torques. If you push a heavy box along the floor, but you apply your push to high on the box's side, you'll tend to raise the end you pushing -i.e. tend to rotate the box. 

 

To create a state of unbalanced torques does not require forces acting in opposite directions (as they are in the above example of pushing a box one way and the force of friction acting in the opposite direction), or even on opposite or adjacent surfaces. All that is required is just a spatially unbalanced application of force on the surface of some object.

 

Is the rail the sole surface where all the torques arise? No. Basically all the wetted surfaces are in play, but in particular the rails and bottom. The fin are also in play.

 

Is this differential flow the only reason why you might be concerned about torques? No. For example, whenever you attempt to change direction (-i.e. rotate) you set up a state of unbalanced torques.

 

If you're satisfied with “That's how its done.” That's great. I'm not.

 

kc

 

 

Once again kcasey, you’ve brought up a very interesting topic.

Ambrose once said to me, during a discusion of more extreem design features, “It’s all about how the board works on the bottom third of the wave.”  Which ties directly into your point about the lower part of the wave moving slower…

I am curious, and skeptical, about your idea that the difference in flow as the wave moves up into space and it’s interaction with the curve of the rail - My initial thought is, the rail is so thin I find it hard to imagine a large difference in flow between a few inches of wave face (for any given section of rail), but take the photo of JOB, there is a ways between the lowest front of the rail in the water, and the highest rear at the tail, so I can start to see it.

I get a kick out of the differences of opinion - It seems to me there is very little hard science regarding the whole package of how a board works, but plenty of emperical experience.  Mix that with wave type, and rider type… Ha!

The speed continum through the verticle rise of the wave…  That may help explain why my buddy thinks he needs a tri-fin to “generate that thrust off the bottom.”  I told him I thought the tri-fin was the best deselerating board, and what he thinks he feels as acceleration, is the g-force when he slows down so fast changing directions so abrubtly.  Now I can add that as one move up the face quickly and vertically, then one encounters faster moving water as well.

Maybe you’ll get a burst of stoke and come up with some of your great visuals…   Gotta love the visuals…

You're too kind... but I'm weak, and that definitely was the was to get me to dust off my Paint Shop Pro.

 

Sure, its not just about rails. But where does the rail end and bottom begin? (My nose just started to bleed... huh? I think I just heard one hand clap...)

 

In the diagram, if you filled in all the forward flow arrows you can begin to get a feel for how they set up a torque on the board and how different rails profiles might be contributing. Its not solely a rail issue. Hull bottoms, etc. set up different net torques, say, as opposed to straight up flat bottoms. Or concaves as opposed convexes – they all set up different net torques.

 

How big is the difference in the flow gradient as you travel from bottom to top? Depends on where you are on the waveform. The steeper the gradient the closer to the curl you are. As you move progressively out towards the shoulder, the gradient is less. Which has some interesting consequences, e.g watch guys as the come blasting out of a tube, or notice it yourself – you literally straighten up (relax?) in terms of your posture.

 

I used rails as an example because I was still thinking about lalabrooklyn's curious rail experiment and the other issues which I had touched upon in that thread. Also, I had just finished reading surffoil's thread. I probably should have left things be, and let people decide if it was useful information or not in whatever application they might be thinking about.

 

kc

 

"diatribe"? As 'a bitter and abusive denounciation'? Huh?

"Ground breaking revelations"? Huh? I was sort of hoping to produce a 'hey, that makes some sense' kind of moment in a reader. 

Questions? Good. Disagreement?, great. But based on what? Your belief that its all been looked into and explored to the point of exhaustion? This might actually be the case, that the vast bulk of design has been explored. But who knows what some new shaper/designer might bring to the shaping stand armed with a different view as to how things might be working.

My style of delivery definitely needs some work, but I think 'diatribe' was a bit over the top. At least in its suggestion of my being 'bitter' and 'abusive' - as for the 'denounciation' ... eeh.. okay, maybe just a little.

But yes, in the end 'it's just surfing' and its all about having some fun. So we definitely agree on that 

kc

Interesting, thought provoking and controversial.  Another Swaylocks classic!

Well done KCasey.

Interesting, thought provoking and controversial.  Another Swaylocks classic!

Well done KCasey.

KC,

use of diatribe withdrawn, no personal offense intended. 

you do tend to jump to negatives, however,  on what you think you’re hearing from others- “Your belief that its all been looked into and explored to the point of exhaustion?”   If that was my belief I would clearly state it.

My belief remains that advances in surfboard design will continue to be incrementally evolutionary, not exponentially revolutionary, which seems to be the primary thrust behind your lengthy dissertations - that we are somehow needing/lacking a quantum leap in surfboard design ‘that will let the average surfer ride Pipeline’.

If current designs didn’t advance one iota over the next decade, which they certainly will on a continuing incremental basis as they always have, their present capacity will still exceed the ability of 99.999 % of the people riding them…it’s not the surfboard that must advance, it’s the surfer…