LESS Fins!

gret post, well put....I am riding a board atm that wasnt designed to be ridden finless but its goin great for me...I have been also riding it with 2 tiny fins and am having an absolute blast on it..also has inspired me to design a finless board that can also be ridden with fins or different variations of fins to give alot of options and its suitable to many different surfers and different skill levels....

I dont think this will become mainstream due to the challenge of mastering surfing with out fins, it is not easy but the rewards are there once a certain level is achieved...very refreshing, almost like learning to surf again, which is awesome to relive....imho...most guys wont even try it coz its different and they know it'll be hard and dont wanna fall off and look kooky, but those who do try it most will realize how hard it is to do, then out of the ones who try it, I reckon only small percentage would persist with it til they get better and then really have some fun doin it....thats why I have designed a user friendly version, makin it simpler with the right designed board and also by having the fins as an option, some might see it as a cop out to not really comitting to doin the finless thing but it isnt a cop out for me, it is just creating a board that allows surfing a few different ways, maybe a surfer can slowly reduce the fin area and size til he is confident to have a go with none....anyway, just my little trip and I am lovin it.....

might post some pics of the board and possibly some footage once it gets all sorted...

 

I’m probably gonna provoke trouble with this question, but with all the amazing channel bottom finless boards around, we never hear any favourable ride reviews of them. Is this because channels are designed to speed up the flow of water through the hull of a finned board, and not actually to give bite or hold? The alaia seems to work best if the surface area is increased in proportion to the width of the board, thereby creating a low pressure area and downward force on the inside rail…creating hold. Channels, by contrast, don’t present two faces to the flow of water like a fin does. So they only trap air, and probably tend to make the board slide out more than it would if the bottom was just flat?

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/HaydencompShansHXoldboards033.jpg[/IMG]

 

hard to see but this is a shot of the 2 small fins ( on aqua Fat-Bat ) that I have been having tons of fun with....havent tried them in any other plugs as yet coz its too much fun how it is....

[quote="$1"]

It seems to me that the challenge is to be able to make a board without fins that will pivot in a carving way..... i.e. hard, on rail turn. A lot of the finless designs look like they would be fast in a straight line........& the ones that look like they might turn almost [by the extent of the bottom contours] have fins....or the birth of them...........when does a fin become a fin?

The key is to get the board to smoothly transition from flat to rail without going into no-mans land.

I love the idea.......& will probably have a go.

[/quote]

 

"No Mans Land " ??? thats where I wanna go .....the slide and lack of hold and control is so fun and to try to control the slide until it can be used in the riding of the wave is awesome......

Nice mark, sounds like you're having lots of fun with it. I learnt on a thruster minimal, but snapped both side fins off. Was fun to surf a 7'6'' with only the 4'' centre fin, until i learnt how to turn. Then i'd try to really bank it over, ready for a nice turn off the bottom, and BANG, face first hahaha. The side slip down the face was kinda fun though, IF you caught it!.

 

 

 

 

Thats where I think Herbs board is going to fit in. It has a different approach to obtaining grip. Hopefully we'll see it return soon. And maybe there are other designers with other different ways of getting the same control.

cool,.always keen to see and hear about diff designs, especially ones that dont simply try to replace fins with grooves and channells, am working on something myself, should be riding it next week, will post pics if interested.....or even if not..haha...

Cool, definitely interested in pictures of your new board Pridemore, Since having posted this thread i have decided I wont shape a finless board, I have enough stuff to try and mess around with with my finned boards and I really do like the purity of the Alaia if im going to paddle something totally different out. Really good to hear all the opinions here though, I agree that once you evolve the finless board towards deep channels and ridges you might as well put fins on it , again thats why I really think the alaia is cool because it relies on rails only and subtle bottom contours but thats just my view. Just have to figure out how to surf one now! In my opinion it seems that the best boards are really honed in to their particular strength… i.e Alaia (rail design) thats why the parabolic rail akin to a snowboard seemed to make so much sense to me because it was concentrating on refining the rail performance through the water, rather than making it way towards a finned board as some of the channel bottom boards appear to be doing… just some thoughts.

For similar performance, LESS fins would mean MORE rail, wouldnt it ?

Maybe more rail area,

 More rail shape beyond a simple curve,

More rail variations and variables, e.g. 'sliding rail fin that extends out/in'

Tunnel rail fins ??

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/RT.jpg[/IMG]

Hey Pridmore !, are those board lying on the beach at Dee Why or Curl Curl ??

at Yamba actually....at one of my fav beachies....the aqua one is going so good, dunno if my finless design thats gunna be ready soon will be as good, actually what I mean is, I have surfed it sooo much, that I know it and know it so well that it'll be hard to imagine hopping on another board and it going as well for me, this board can be ridden with no fins, 4 fins ( several varirations that all seem to go well for me ), 3 fins but I am havin the most fun on it with the 2 tiny cut offs, gettin plenty of weird looks but just the feeling of freedom and sliding is awesome,  its not like sliding so uncontollably, but just enough control to do what I want but still the freedom and sliding to keep me really on my toes, plenty of falling off at the start but getting it wired now and lovin it.....if I can design this newy to allow others ( average surfers, not just rippers ) to enjoy what I am doin, well , that will be very satisfying...maybe I am a little different in what I enjoy but I know that the feeling is really addictive and challenging yet easier than alaia surfing, you have the float and volume to get plenty of waves, the riding of the wave is easier but still the feeling is close...anyway, my little trip atm and enjoying it immensely......bla bla bla...sorry to go on....hahaha.....

 

I realize the approach taken (so far in this thread) tends to be the phenomenological one, but if you dare lift the lid on on that fuzzy box called dynamics, a number of interesting design directions present themselves.

 

Background...

 

We can't say for sure exactly what the profile of pressure developed under a board is during surfing – both over time and space. But we have a crude picture as offered to us by Savitsky in his classical analysis of hydroplaning.

 

Savitsky didn't address surfing in his model of planing, just the phenomena itself. In order to apply it to surfing you need only rotate his classic diagram, see figure at bottom of post.

 

… towards the topic at hand.

 

Notice where the pressure profile peaks, its basically a little back from where the bottom of his plank meets the flow. But just as importantly, as it relates to the topic of this thread, notice how it tapers off rapidly after the peak. When you're surfing, that peak of pressure is likely to be somewhere between your two feet, in fact its palpable -i.e. its presence, detected through your feet provides critical information during surfing.

 

Now imagine a little tail rocker on Savitsky's plank. The effect of the rocker, would be to diminish this profile even further -i.e. cause it to drop off even faster, at least under certain circumstances - like when the peak is a little more forward than usual, say when you shift your weight forward.

 

...at least some evidence.

 

We've got some real evidence that this is so from some of the experimental designs that have been reported here on Swaylocks. I'm of course referring to You? when you carved an exaggerated swallow tail into one of your boards, and wound up with the potential to generate a 'rooster tail' as a result. That is, the water tended to squirt up in forward section of the exaggerated swallow tail.

 

But this isn't true for swallows in general, so one might conclude that a point exists where the pressure profile tapers off, and it seems to happen quite rapidly after the peak, at least on a short board, or a board that being surfed from the tail (as opposed to a longer board in which the surfer is surfing the board more forward.)  But this is where the fins are? That is, the pressure profile stands to be very different, remarkably so between where the fins are located and where the of peak pressure is.

 

Consider an experiment, you stick your flatten but vertically held hand in a stream. Now let the height of the stream oscillate a bit, that is let the level of the water go up and down a bit, but you keep your hand steady. As the water level changes so does the wetted surface of your hand, or 'emulated fin'. And on a surfboard as the peak pressure shifts forward, so stands the effectiveness of the fin, or at least that's what I'm proposing. Mind you this example exaggerates the effect, in particular it suggests that the base of the fin becomes less effective under such circumstances... oh, wait, that is what I'm saying. Of course, whether you believe it or not, well that's another matter.

 

Could this be happening during surfing? For longboarders, at least for those who tend to walk about a bit, I would argue that it surely does. Popping a shallow fin while on the nose happens all the time. Though there are other parameters involved in good fin design, I would nevertheless suggest that the general design of longboard fins, and in particular the depth of longboard fins tends to account for this effect.

 

For shorter boards, or boards designed to be surfed from their tail, the effect is less obvious and dramatic, but I would suggest this effect is very much present too.

 

(By the way, if you take the argument a little further, you wind up arguing that a board with less rocker can get away with a shallower fin... among other strange conclusions?)

 

… the classical design of fins.

 

Without much thought, if asked to make a fin, most of us (maybe not, but that's another thread) would likely copy that classical tapered profile – a larger base tapering off to a tip, with a little sweep backward from base to tip. But given what I've just argued, one can perhaps understand why those strange fin design outliers, like the Dewey Weber's Performer, or some those Rice take-offs, or a lot the latest shortboard fins have tended to diverge from that classical base-to-tip profile taper. Surely in at least some of those cases, the designer, I would assume, wanted to maintain effective fin surface when conditions were such that tail of the board was experiencing virtually no, or little planing pressure -i.e. back to the stream analogy, when the water level dropped a bit. Whether or not the designer thought along these lines I don't know, but intuitively he may have realized as much,

 

Of course, there are other design considerations to be accounted for here, but for now I'm focusing on just this one. That is, as the rear or tail section bottom interacts less with the flow and stands to lift itself virtually, in the dynamical sense out of the flow, or interact less with the flow, under those circumstances, a little more surface towards the tip of the fin will enable the fin to continue to function effectively.

 

Summarizing...

 

Or as the tail interacts less, the base region of the fin interacts less, and more fin is required further out towards the tip to maintain fin function.

 

… back to the 'finless'.

 

In a nutshell, as your weight shifts forward, especially on a finless board, the effect of the tail contours is diminished given their inherent shallowness. And it doesn't take much to diminish it to virtually nothing.

 

… a solution? 

 

Given you haven't got 'fins', move the critical contours forward. Some have already started to do this, if the pictures are any indication of a trend. Really, move  whole mess forward, and sacrifice that central flat region in the process if you must.   

 

Another solution, might be to back off on the amount of tail rocker, maybe completely - in which case you may not have to move the critical contours all that much forward.

 

If you're retaining the rocker and just moving the critical contours, I would concentrate them very close to the expected placement of the forward foot. As for what you do to the bottom of the rest of the rear section? You could do what you what's being done now, or nothing at all. But you might want at least a simple concave or vee or something - something to have that you can bring to bare when you sink the tail a little -.i.e shift the peak pressure towards the rear.  I, personally would also change the design of the contours, moving away from the rail-exterior-rounded design. (Then again maybe not... that is, the precise nature of the contours as well as there exact position, is something that likely needs to be experimented with, so for now I'm inclined to just suggest moving the contours forward if you want to keep a lot of rocker - added Jul 26/10.)

 

 

… Sorry but a few more notes on longboards.

 

If you've followed my argument so far, than nose-riding tends to become a slightly different dynamical event then its generally understood to be.

 

Its not about wings on fins, nor about tail flips, nor curious slots or contours in the nose, though these kinds of novelty design tweaks (cheats?) can work to a point, or enhance whats really required. Its about understanding that as you move, that is walk along your board, the peak pressure also moves. Now if there is sufficient pressure for the bottom surface area being presented, you can walk up right up to the nose.

 

Forgive me, I know this thread wasn't about nose-riding, but it is all sort of related. So on that note, for those who have made it this far, here's a bonus - one of my favor poems... (Warning: Don't repeat it a parties, people will avoid you.)

 

A system is a big black box
Of which we can't unlock the locks,
And all we can find out about
Is what goes in and what comes out.

 

Perceiving input-output pairs,
Related by parameters,
Permits us, sometimes, to relate
An input, output and a state.

 

If this relation's good and stable.
Then to predict we may be able,
But if this fails us – heaven forbid!
We'll be compelled to force the lid!

- Kenneth Boulding, economist.

 

 

kc

 

 

some interesting reding there...and even though all the science stuff isnt the way I generally approach my design work, it definitely reconfirms some of my learnings from recent from trials with finless and small different fin variations on varied craft....some may think that science is the way to go but some of us have brains that work a bit differently, i tend to go on feelings and things I have learnt ( as well as gut feelings sometimes ) and thats exactly whats happening atm with my finless stuff...its super fun learning and adapting my surfing on such challenging craft but then also thats when I learn the most and then can use this in shaping my next version/s...alot of what you said make sense, especially the moving forward on the board and the tail not being as relevant coz the boards not being turned from there, its more forward and planning instead of leaning and carving using rails and fins...my current board has fairly deep double thru where the fins would be which creates lift and it really wants to lift and spin on take offs but I have adapted when riding it, but obviously a beginner ( finless that is ) would have alot of trouble ( as I did ) so I eliminate that, but in saying that, the lift and sliding has been understood and I utilise it when riding the wave now and will miss that if it goes ( as it will coz I have made changes for the newy , reduce rocker, no concaves, only very slight rolled vee , deeper swallow instead of shallow bat among some changes to tail area )...but it will be very interesting to ride the newy and see the differences and see if they do what I have designed them to do......the rails are very different also, have gone from some old school hard down rails ( but with well rolled and tucked edge- kinda unique rail that I did for speed mostly and they do work well but also seem to work very well in this board as finless but I have gone with a very rolled almost 60/40 type rail, looking for hold into the waves face and not release ( even though I like the other rails, I have changed to make this easier for others to ride ), anyway, lots of stuff going on, thinking behind all of it but as is always the way with these mysterious creations, there is an element of unsurity with new designs...and I love it.....

 

I get it - different approaches - what works works.

There is a take away here that you may or may not wish to keep in mind and that's the pressure profile that you sense through your feet (ankles, joints, limbs, etc.) In fact a lot of the time you can pretty much pin point it - as in literally point to it. Most surfers are well aware of it - in fact, I would argue that that's what they are surfing -i.e. they are surfing the pressure profile, but because its so routine, its not something they are consciously thinking about. In fact, I'd argue if you could get a blind man up and surfing, he'd probably do just fine.

kc

 

 

a blindman surfing finless, I wanna see that haha....but I get ya point....

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/FishFingerandCraigs66QF016.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/FishFingerandCraigs66QF013.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/FishFingerandCraigs66QF006.jpg[/IMG]

 

 

[quote="$1"]

 

.... its not something they are consciously thinking about. In fact, I'd argue if you could get a blind man up and surfing, he'd probably do just fine.

kc 

[/quote]

+1, because most surfers dont look at their board when theyre riding , so its just by feel rather than visual input.

Just close your eyes the next time your up and flying... and just 'feel the force'...

 

... or get planted by some big lip, Either way, a learning experience.

kc

yep, closed my eyes but hard to keep em shut, didnt want to miss a second of a nice little peeler...but taking more notice of whats goin on under my feet....      another thing I noticed is when ya get back on finned boards, it feels simpler, easier and unfortunately alot duller...whenever the waves are ok for finless, thats what I doin....but when its too steep and closing out, then one of my various finned boards gets a run....funny thing is, I am currently doin some testing for C-drive fins......

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/hanoKritta76FB80SwingerFFinger016.jpg[/IMG]

3 plugs so you can choose whether you want keels, standard fins, big twinnies ( MR style ), tiny little training wheels fins ( my personal fave for minimal hold and still plenty of slide, glide and spin...) or totally finless.......surfers ability and waves depending ....

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/hanoKritta76FB80SwingerFFinger015.jpg[/IMG]

 

 

www.moresurfboards.com

I have been riding this one alot and its super fun, it does some things great but I will make some adjustments, I am goin to reduce width in the tail and reduce curve in planshape thru tail area....in ceratain waves it goes awesome as is but to make it more user freindly, some mods will be done, especially if surfers who arent used to finless surfing want to enjoy it.....

here are a few very lame pics of me riding the board in some small beachies, the pics dont show much, they were taken by my son and with an average little camera....may be of interest to someone......

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/pipsturnsaug1510014.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/pipsturnsaug1510015.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/pipsturnsaug1510016.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/Ffingermains009.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/pridmore73/Ffingermains002.jpg[/IMG]

 

[quote="$1"]

Savitsky didn't address surfing in his model of planing, just the phenomena itself. In order to apply it to surfing you need only rotate his classic diagram, see figure at bottom of post.

 

… towards the topic at hand.

 

Notice where the pressure profile peaks, its basically a little back from where the bottom of his plank meets the flow. But just as importantly, as it relates to the topic of this thread, notice how it tapers off rapidly after the peak. When you're surfing, that peak of pressure is likely to be somewhere between your two feet, in fact its palpable -i.e. its presence, detected through your feet provides critical information during surfing.

  [/quote]

 

casey, do you think Savitsky's theory here explains why short board rockers often have the flattest part (highest radii) somewhere between your feet, like 10-18" back from centre. The flat section (which also increases pressure) can then take advantage of the increased planning pressure.

 

Sorry, a bit off topic.