Like I said earlier some of the guys aren’t really married to their primary shapers. I know Kelly also gets boards from a Euro shaper when they are on that leg, I remember seeing a photo of one of the other guys (Freddie P maybe) picking up a carload of boards from a shaper in Brazil when they were down there. So even though they may be set on more less a particular shape they will at least acknowledge that local shapers may be able to put a little local knowledge into their product.
On Kelly: Some of my views on Slater may not be popular, because it’s the norm to call him a freak, the best ever and all that. He may very well be.
However…I can think of a few surfers in the Kelly era that were his equal in talent, had has much power and in some way better style. Nicky Wood and Shane Herring come to mind. The fact is…luck has " a bit " to do with it at a high level. Kelly got sponsored by the top company and taken under the wing at an early age. He didn’t get zoned out on drugs or partying to much because he had folks around him and likely a good home life. Some of the others with the same talent could have seriously interupted his run at eight had they not had some personal issues. Even Curren in Kelly’s early years would have given him a run had his heart been in it. Kelly has remained free from injury. Some surfers were simply born more prone to it. Were Kelly at his current state riding his current equipment to go back in time to 1982, there is no doubt he would shine…but with that bunch of hungry talent on the tour back then…who actually could hassle you for waves in your heat…who knows the mindset. There are just too many factors.
Status quo is the reason the pros stay on what they ride and only barely creep out to ride other equipment and even then…it’s rare it’s during the contest season. I just can’t imagine Kelly surfing a single, being the best surfer in the contest on it and still making it to the final.
Our entire industy is built around Two established magazines owned by the same company, Two to four major clothing brands and pointed nosed short boards. Along with that are personalities which have driven the competitive part of the sport for decades and personalities that similar to gangs… like things to remain safe, stable and consistent.
The early Slater era was great for boardbuilders, especially new ones because of the ready to shape blanks and re emergence of the fin box. A good shaper of factory could churn out the pointed nose little jobs a heck of alot quicker than longboards, wider shorties or functional eggs that require some serious shaping to make work right.
It seems the last five years have been some of the most experimental since the late seventies and early eighties and it’s been refreshing to say the least…exept for people wanting old worn out designs to ride exactly the same as they did when we left them for a reason. The good experimentation has taken some of that where it was left and attempted to improve on it. New Twins, Quads, Singles and even old style longboards with a twist.
I don’t think you will see the pros changing anytime soon…but I see a day rapidly approaching where pro influence will become obsolete to the majority. Many surfers…even beginners are opting for going surfing and asking about the right equipment rather than dreaming of some surfer lifestyle that never really existed or riding surfboards with some pro’s name on it that doesn’t work for them, but attempting to live in a dream state that there is some magic in the measurments of pro equipment.
When it comes to impressing judges and impressive free surfing is a different board required? I think Shane Beschen questioned the validity of WCT contests (or whatever it was that they called it back then) and how it was progressing (or was it regressing?) modern surfing. Is the WCT all about four to the beach and a board to match? If so is it the judges on the WCT that are shaping the future of surfing/surfboards or is it the pros? Possible scenario is as follows…
Head ASP judge: We are now looking for whoever stays up the longest on a wave and thats it. Any aerials and your disqualified.
Kelly Slater gets a fat hog of a board that will not only pick up the nearest sniff of a wave but rides it into the nearest river that is nearby and stays on the ripple as it continues on its way. Wins. Masses soon order the equivalent shape.
Insert your own scenario?
Deambo, if you read the rules, the judging criteria and all that, you’ll see that it doesn’t work that way.
Also, the judging criteria is being done with pro surfers opinions.
The head judge doesn’t tell the judges what should they score, there’s a judging criteria.
WCT heats are man on man unless the first round (3 surfers).
Have you ever payed attention to an entire WCT event and all its details?, do you know the rules and the criteria?
Judges don’t look for what’s more impressive, they look for what is the surfing with the major degree of difficulty according to the ASP criteria.
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they look for what is the surfing with the major degree of difficulty according to the ASP criteria.
Right…and criteria can be an in vogue thing. …floaters are hot…no airs…how about an under the lip snap? Kind of like longboard contest where the guy rips the crap out of a wave on a performance longboard…but…the judging criteria is set so he must go back in time and noseride like Lance Carson also. Mixing doesn’t work either, because your looking at two different styles of surfing. It’s a problem when you attempt to define how someone should surf. It’s the problem with a subjective sport having contest. We have spoken of this before and you know I am not giving you a hard time. It’s just a pet subject of mine.
I am pretty much against all surf contest anyway at this point in time. I have no issue if folks enjoy watching or surfing in them, but they will not define the future of board design like they once did. The most recent sucess story in Surfboard manufacture is geared towards your common surfer…not the pro. Even if they have pro models…thats not what drives the popout industry.
No airs?, Slater just won the last event by pulling an air form nowhere…
ASP Judging criteria:
“A surfer must perform radical controlled manoeuvres in the critical section of a wave with Speed, Power and Flow to maximize scoring potential. Innovative / Progressive surfing as well as Variety of Repertoire ( manoeuvres ),will be taken into consideration when rewarding points for waves ridden. The surfer who executes this criteria with the maximum Degree of Difficulty and Commitment on the waves shall be rewarded with the higher scores.”
Scale Base: [ 0 - 2: Poor ] [ 2 - 4: Fair ] [ 4 - 6: Average ] [ 6 - 8: Good ] [ 8 - 10: Excellent ]
I’m done with this untill someone shows me how it is related to surfboard design and construction.
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No airs?, Slater just won the last event by pulling an air form nowhere…
ASP Judging criteria:
“A surfer must perform radical controlled manoeuvres in the critical section of a wave with Speed, Power and Flow to maximize scoring potential. Innovative / Progressive surfing as well as Variety of Repertoire ( manoeuvres ),will be taken into consideration when rewarding points for waves ridden. The surfer who executes this criteria with the maximum Degree of Difficulty and Commitment on the waves shall be rewarded with the higher scores.”
Scale Base: [ 0 - 2: Poor ] [ 2 - 4: Fair ] [ 4 - 6: Average ] [ 6 - 8: Good ] [ 8 - 10: Excellent ]
I’m done with this untill someone shows me how it is related to surfboard design and construction.
I think solo meant that on a given day, airs might not score as high as other days. Not so long ago, “functional” maneuvers were the high scores with 360’s and airs not scoring as well. I see the rules, and have judged some am contests, and have seen the human factor in judging. I’m sure every ASP judge knows the rules, but it’s still a subjective judging criteria and difficult to get consistent results. If it weren’t, every judge would score every ride the same.
Back to the original topic, it occurred to me that the level of surfing has gotten so high, that it’s likely we’ve become jaded on what a “good ride” is!
Further, being the selfish surfer that I am, I wish every other surfer still wanted to be like Kelly and ride narrow, thin, rockered little chips so that me on my fat boy shortboard could get more waves!
Threads about the limitations of modern short boards, the effect of the WCT on the evolution of surfboard design, and the integrity of the ASP always intrigue me. The Sways crew seems to lean towards a perception that the modern short board is holding these elite surfers back, WCT surfers are riding dead end designs, and the ASP, whether WCT or WQS, does not have a well defined, consistent criteria and staff in place to provide legitimate results at their events.
Fortunately there are some contributing to this site and discussion who actually have considerable knowledge based on experience in surfboard design and competitive surfing. It’s encouraging to read Coque’s posts. Thank you Coque! He’s focusing on offering first hand knowledge of the ASP, the ASP judging criteria, and how the criteria functions to award scores and yield results.
It appears Bobby Martinez and Al Merrick may be splitting up. If Bobby becomes a free agent (well, he was riding DHDs in Australia, and many of the CT pros will test a variety of different shaper’s designs when preparing for an event,) it’s a great opportunity for some of the designer / shapers from Sways to “bust down the doors” and provide some alternative designs to a gifted - world class surfer. That would not be the only opportunity for an alternative minded designer / shaper to provide surfboards to WCT surfers. Design and build the boards you think will blow the modern short board out of the water and show up at the next stop on tour, meet a few of the surfers, show and explain to them your designs, and ask them to test your design.
Nothing is gained or lost - no design is validated or eliminated with a keyboard on the internet. The test is in the water.
Trust me. If you can provide a WCT surfer with superior equipment - and a competitive edge - most will take you up on it. And the masses will soon order your shape.
Kind regards,
Steve “Cornelius” Coletta
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“A surfer must perform radical controlled manoeuvres in the critical section of a wave with Speed, Power and Flow to maximize scoring potential. Innovative / Progressive surfing as well as Variety of Repertoire ( manoeuvres ),will be taken into consideration when rewarding points for waves ridden. The surfer who executes this criteria with the maximum Degree of Difficulty and Commitment on the waves shall be rewarded with the higher scores.”
Scale Base: [ 0 - 2: Poor ] [ 2 - 4: Fair ] [ 4 - 6: Average ] [ 6 - 8: Good ] [ 8 - 10: Excellent ]
If that’s all there is to the judging criteria, I’d say whatever score you end up with is pretty subjective at best and pretty much dumb luck at worst. Compare that to the scoring system in any sport in the Olympics, like gymnastics or ski jumping, they will have a hell of a lot more rigid set of rules. Unstable at a landing, n points deducted. Fall? Half of the max score gone. And so forth and so on. Not saying that that’s the way it should be with surfing, but these criteria does not help much with objective judging.
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Trust me. If you can provide a WCT surfer with superior equipment - and a competitive edge - most will take you up on it. And the masses will soon order your shape.
Thanks Cornelius, that was always my point!, there’re no conspiracies agains alternative designs, anyone of the judges would love to watch someone come on a different surfboard and win. If pro surfers are surfing on those surfboards is because they think those surfboards help them surf their best, and most of them tried every kind of board imaginable.
I’d love to see a contest where all the pros ride the same exact board ~ maybe even some Swaylock’s inspired hybrid thing ~ not your typical 6’1" potato chip.
Fact is, a truly talented surfer can ride ANYTHING well. I wonder how many pros would get embarrased surfing a non standard wave slider.
Now that would be somethin!
~Brian
Didn’t Bic do this for while with the One Design contests?
There’s a few other kind of novelty events that do it. I know there were a couple in both California and North Carolina where you drew a number which was assigned to a board, and that was what you had to ride. Most of the boards were old retro, but not necessarily good, shapes. I think the event in NC even had a board that was missing a fin or something.
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Threads about the limitations of modern short boards, the effect of the WCT on the evolution of surfboard design, and the integrity of the ASP always intrigue me. The Sways crew seems to lean towards a perception that the modern short board is holding these elite surfers back, WCT surfers are riding dead end designs, and the ASP, whether WCT or WQS, does not have a well defined, consistent criteria and staff in place to provide legitimate results at their events. I think your pereception is not my view at all. I don’t think the modern shortboard is holding anyone back on the pro tour. I do believe that that magic equipment you mentioned at the end of your post would not be accepted as you might think. It was tried with fish in the early ninties and some pros and officials were screaming wider boards were an unfair advantage. The idea behind the ASP is for everyone to be on pretty much the same equipment. I have explained my reasons, why I believer this. Dead end designs? No…not exactly. Only not the right design for 90% of surfers on 90% of the surf they ride them in. In other words…the most of the surfers that buy them off the rack. As for the WCT and WQS…most may not feel as I do. I think there is an element of them being rigged, but beyond that…they are subjective at best and the well defined criteria and legitimate results have already been prove to be wrong on another thread. My friend Cogue said that Slater is actually judged harder because of his position. Thats cheating. Even if it’s not intetional. It’s impossible to take human error out of something and especially when it’s backed by big money, buying the judges stuff and all that stuff that goes on in our industry. I don’t speak for the other swaylockers…only myself.
Fortunately there are some contributing to this site and discussion who actually have considerable knowledge based on experience in surfboard design and competitive surfing. It’s encouraging to read Coque’s posts. Thank you Coque! He’s focusing on offering first hand knowledge of the ASP, the ASP judging criteria, and how the criteria functions to award scores and yield results. Yes…Cogue always writes informative post with considerable knowledge. This is one of the few areas I find myself in disagreement with him. BTW: Being a pro, a judge or the owners of the ASP doesn’t mean anything in this discussion. If it were rigged or they knew for sure about human error…do you think they woud come out and say it? I ran contest at an Amateur level for almost a decade and have been involved in some big contest with hundreds of competitors. Please don’t tell me there is this huge difference at the pro level because I have seen many of those judges helping out with the Amateur. Having said that…there is nothing illogical about Cogues post on the subject…I just disagree mildly.
It appears Bobby Martinez and Al Merrick may be splitting up. If Bobby becomes a free agent (well, he was riding DHDs in Australia, and many of the CT pros will test a variety of different shaper’s designs when preparing for an event,) it’s a great opportunity for some of the designer / shapers from Sways to “bust down the doors” and provide some alternative designs to a gifted - world class surfer. That would not be the only opportunity for an alternative minded designer / shaper to provide surfboards to WCT surfers. Design and build the boards you think will blow the modern short board out of the water and show up at the next stop on tour, meet a few of the surfers, show and explain to them your designs, and ask them to test your design. This sounds great…but it’s just not going to happen. You should know how this game is played …as you seem to have some good knowledge of our sport yourself. There have been designs that improved some surfers performance and they were not judged well regardless of the surfing. Again…early nineties…What they called a fish then. Wider swallow tail thrusters…only slightly wider than stock competition boards. The other thing wrong with this statement is that still leaves judging criteria which is at the whim of those involved in the ASP. If you want the fame and fortune…you have to play the game the way they set it up. A better tour would be my suggestion and one not backed by clothing companies and magazines. Still I wouldn’t like that because I am pretty much against most institutional follow the leader organizations with the collective mindset.
Nothing is gained or lost - no design is validated or eliminated with a keyboard on the internet. The test is in the water. Ideas are gained on the internet and whats done in the water is 95% done because of raw surfing talent not boards. Not only that…it doesn’t matter in discussion on idealogy on the modern surfboard and it’s contributions or not…to the sport. We can say so and so rips, but some of those guys couldn’t even tell you why their boards works the way it does and are dependent on their shaper’s knowledge. Not in every case, but there are some.
Trust me. If you can provide a WCT surfer with superior equipment - and a competitive edge - most will take you up on it. And the masses will soon order your shape. Again…already been tried and didn’t happen. There is a status quo to keep up with. Labels do matter on surfboards and contest. Period. Why did Tom Curren go without a logo one winter on the north shore at the height of his career?
Kind regards,
Steve “Cornelius” Coletta
Steve, with all due respect , I didn’t intend this thread to become a diatribe against pro surfing.
I just wanted to make the observation that the pros seem increasingly locked in to a very narrow set of design parameters which to my eye cost them performance in marginal conditons and which Kelly was able to exploit using design shifts (albeit subtle).
I have been around many ASP connys and although I am not a judge, a good mate of mine is (Pritamo Ahrendt)…damm good surfer too…
You don’t have to be Einstein to see that the judging, whilst improving from the old days, is still inconsistent at best and wildy incoherent at worst.
However, having said that , it’s also fair to say that MOST times it’s fairly clear who won the heat.
There’s no doubt in my mind , having watched most of the last two connys, that Slater smoked 'em comprehensively, and that a big factor in his win was his surfboard design choices, which were slightly but significantly different from his peers.
I disagree with Coque, from my observatons, that pros are experimenting with different surfboard designs with an aim to riding them in connys. I think they dabble with these designs for fun, but never seriously entertain the thought of riding them in contests. They don’t , for the most part, deviate from their standard shorties…and this is to the detriment of design progression IN CERTAIN CONDITIONS, for contests…as Slater has proven.
I actually don’t have anything against contests…I used to be vehemently anti-contest but now I see it as a SPORT and I like watching sport. It is entertaining and it has it’s transcendent moments.
I think Solo is right though when he says that pro surfing is no longer the engine driving surfboard design forward…it’s simply too narrowly focussed and anti-innovative.
Anyway, thanks for all the interesting and well-thought out responses…this has been a lot of fun.
Steve
Lennox, you are right, most of them will not experiment. CJ won the trestles four star WQS on a split tail quad, then rode a tri at the boost mobile CT. What was that all about? When the CT has the waves like it did a couple of years ago, I think the boards they ride are the best for what they are doing. Last year, and the beginning of this year, they obviously needed to make some adjustments to their equipment due to marginal conditions (for them, looked pretty good from my point of view). I think KS was the only one who did.
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Steve, with all due respect , I didn’t intend this thread to become a diatribe against pro surfing.
I just wanted to make the observation that the pros seem increasingly locked in to a very narrow set of design parameters which to my eye cost them performance in marginal conditons and which Kelly was able to exploit using design shifts (albeit subtle).
I have been around many ASP connys and although I am not a judge, a good mate of mine is (Pritamo Ahrendt)…damm good surfer too…
You don’t have to be Einstein to see that the judging, whilst improving from the old days, is still inconsistent at best and wildy incoherent at worst.
However, having said that , it’s also fair to say that MOST times it’s fairly clear who won the heat.
There’s no doubt in my mind , having watched most of the last two connys, that Slater smoked 'em comprehensively, and that a big factor in his win was his surfboard design choices, which were slightly but significantly different from his peers.
I disagree with Coque, from my observatons, that pros are experimenting with different surfboard designs with an aim to riding them in connys. I think they dabble with these designs for fun, but never seriously entertain the thought of riding them in contests. They don’t , for the most part, deviate from their standard shorties…and this is to the detriment of design progression IN CERTAIN CONDITIONS, for contests…as Slater has proven.
I actually don’t have anything against contests…I used to be vehemently anti-contest but now I see it as a SPORT and I like watching sport. It is entertaining and it has it’s transcendent moments.
I think Solo is right though when he says that pro surfing is no longer the engine driving surfboard design forward…it’s simply too narrowly focussed and anti-innovative.
Anyway, thanks for all the interesting and well-thought out responses…this has been a lot of fun.
Steve
Exellent post Lenox. My post were to go along with your original premise. My suggestion that the thought pattern behind the tour is why you see what you have mentioned in your post.
Steve, i am in complete agreement with your post around this subject. as we all agree that the every day average surfer is not in his best interests to ride what the pro’s ride, i thought some statistics might show the publics thinking.
i have been using google adwords for the last couple months for my website. you aussie guys would have seen them popping up here on sways too!
i have a series of ads running. 1- WANNA SURF LIKE A PRO. 2-CUSTOM FISH SURFBOARDS. 3- CUSTOM SHAPED SURFBOARDS. 4- CUSTOM LONGBOARDS. 5- QUAD FISH SURFBOARDS.
if you know anything about google. they feature ads all the same amount of times, then the more click thru’s an ad has then the more it gets run. this is calculated daily. so each ad gets a fair run everyday.
anyone wanna guess the statistics?
thats it the “WANNA SURF LIKE A PRO” ad after 2 months has had 70% of the hits and click thru’s. maybe it has little to do with the fact i have focused my marketing on alternatives to the pro shortboard for about the last 7 years? (what a lot of wasted money- maybe)
my point being the public still wants high performance shortboards, even if we all know there not the best choice for them…
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my point being the public still wants high performance shortboards, even if we all know there not the best choice for them…
Good post…I think all of us want the highest performance shortboard we can float. I think the question for some of us is…what is called a high performance surfboard by today’s standards is not all there is. There is more and probably something not yet invented. I can’t wait to see that one.
i have been reading these boards for 9 months and have never until now felt the need to post but with regards to limitations of modern shortboards by feral dave i felt i needed to. As an ex-pro surfer living on goldcoast i ride a wide variety of boards from the top local shapers and the reason no top pros here ride Diverse surfboards is they are not up to scratch. the designs are not good enough for pros or even good local riders, thats why the best guys continue to go to the other shapers.
Good rebuttal solo. I just respectfully disagree based on my perception. (I probably could have left out some of the ironic satire regarding opportunities for shapers with pro surfers.)
Probably dearest to me is my observation that within the scope of the “modern - high performance short boards” employed by the WCT pros there is substantial variation in dimensions, volume, and configuration. Big guys like Pancho Sullivan, Bede Durbidge, Leonardo Neves, Daniel Ross, and Jay Thompson are riding pretty significant volume (although certainly the same narrow nose / concave / thruster they do have the volume and the surface area of the fishy thrusters of the early 90s you were referencing.) Small guys like Timmy Reyes, Bobby Martinez, Adriano de Souza, and Danny Wills are riding really low volume boards.
Is the debate whether or not to consider those differences a design variation? I don’t know. It may not be for me to say. The answer may depend upon the culture of who is posing the question and the culture of the audience. Certainly the variations I’m talking about are a difference in design, but probably not a different design. The more relevant question as designers may be, (and I believe this relates to the subject of the thread - possible limitations of the modern short board from observation of the Australian leg of the CT) can variation in dimensions, volume, and configuration render any design functional for a wide scope of surfers in a wide scope of conditions?
What are the prototypical dimensions, volume, and configuration of a classic early 60s long board? What variations would be required to make a classic long board for a 12 year old girl who weighs 80 pounds and dreams of surfing like Phil Edwards? And what are the prototypical dimensions, volume, and configuration of a contemporary short board? And what variations would be required to make a contemporary short board for a 6’ 4" - 240 pound 40 year old who dreams of surfing like Pancho Sullivan?
I agree with Coque regarding the integrity of the ASP. I trust their commitment to being an open and transparent organization doing it’s best to provide most of the world’s best surfers with a standardized and agreed upon set of rules and criteria at a variety of venues around the world with significant variation in the critical demands each venue places on them to compete among themselves in determining an annual world champion. For a variety of reasons - good, bad, and otherwise some people don’t like contest. That’s fine.
So anyway, good debating the subject.
Kind regards,
Steve “Cornelius” Coletta