I still think the “stripes” you are seeing are from too vigorous use of course sanding screen, I see it in finished boards constantly. I have “old faithful”, severly used #100 screen that I use for the final rail finish, one pass up and one pass back, each side, only to polish up the foam, not for shaping the rail.
The marks are snad screen marks. I like sandscreen marks. I think there is a better glass adhesion. Contrary to popular belief, I believe a little bit of resin trapped in the sandscreen grooves and makes a glass job stronger. resin and glass bond to the foam blanck is strickly a mechanical bond.I actually have a tools that pierces tiny little holes into the foam a an angle into the deck------never had a delam–EVER!~ Yes, it is a bit heavier glass job but heavy isn’t neccessarily bad. ANSWER TO CNC MASS PRODUCTION: When you want a job done for cheap who do you get to do it, a Mexican. I use to find that offensive because I am Mexican. But, it is the truth. It does not take long to train a person to finish boards, seriously. Everyone thinks you need and experienced shaper, false. AN experience shaper can go in right away a do a good job. However, teach a monket to hold a sanding sponge, sand paper, teach him to keep a hard edge towards the tail, blah blah frikking blah. Low education people are learning to machine space shuttle parts so don’t even think for a minute that you can’t train anyone to finish a board. Look at the precision work body shops have to do, snading biondo, lead fills welding, etc…low level educated people do that … A big FRUSTED ERRRRR about everyone thinging shaping is some mystical thing…also, this obsession with perfection…Kelly Slater can’t tell the difference between a symetrical shape or one with a slight twist…he just ripps it up!!! SAND SCREEN MARKS DON"T MAKE A LICK OF DIFFERENCE!!! LET’S TALK MORE ABOUT DESIGN!!!ANyone can shape a pop out!!!
I miss the days of a guy showing up at the beach with a newly designed and shaped board with an explainatin of why he shaped what into it and then whatching himn surf for the first time on it, then later latting others try it ou etc. KNow everybody just shows up with generics…Un orthodoxed Mark Richards is a Hero!!! Whether it was right or not, but a big lenky guy surfing like no body’s business on a twin fin with a wide nose…cut backs like that on a twin fin…man knew he surfed… Hey, I think I’ll go make a pop out…of a MR that is…
I liked what Dave had to say. I think a board with a slight twist or imperfection might work better, or at least may feelbetter. Heck the boards I make are as far from perfect as they can get, and a few of them work like no other I own. ALso I like how dave brought up the fact about the first time riding a new board. I have a few boards I made that I just threw under the shack because they sucked and I could not ride them if my life depended on it. But am sure if I gave it to Curren he would do wonders on it. There are just some of those surfers out there that can ride anything. Also I remember what sam george had to say in surfer, about boards in general. Some of the best boards he ever owned and rode were the ones with dents and patched dings all over them. Old faithful, were you can just jump on it and it feels good. No matter what condition.
the reason that boards with lots of dings often ride the best is because those boards (the ones that work) are the ones we ride most, thus they get the dings. If you look at a quiver, pick the board that looks best, chance are it either 1) is brand new or 2) sucks and never gets ridden…
Dave, not knowing you, but your comment that anyone can finish a pop-out is not correct. Maybe sand the grooves off, but not have it be what the original design was. Every blank experiences what is refered to as relaxaton during cutting, one side comes out thicker, not by much, but to the experienced eye, very visible. As for the twisted board thought, yes we all surf differently backside that frontside, but as a craftsman expecting to be paid for a job well done? The Mexican comment, well Mexicans weren’t brought up with daddies Lexis and know the value of hard work and money when junior wouldn’t get his hands dirty. Walker, Clark and many other California surf related businesses employ legal and some, undocumented laborers. There are 2 factories in Ensenada that are fully Mexican owned and operated, turning out pretty darn good boards. My 9’6" swallow gun was glassed at Miguels factory, the board isn’t for sale, so why should I spend another hundred dollars for a personal board? But back to the fact that unskilled laborers can be just as good off the machine shapers, when 75% of the “skilled” shapers aren’t very skilled them selves. The true shaper craftsman is a real rareity and there are those that never get it. There is one shaper who gets mentioned here often, shapes famous surfers boards, his stringers are phenominally high, the foam is scarred next to the sticks. He gets boards off a machine and he NEVER fixes the offset rails. I showed him how one rail was an 1/8" to a 1/4" thicker, he never saw it, thought because it was off a machine it was perfect. So how does the eye that has no working knowledge fy rocker, rails. bottom, etc. turn out good shapes?
Jim, You make at least 20 good points about board construction above and why things are the way they. Frankly I don’t care what a persons religous persuasion or ethnic background is as long as he’s competent and we can communicate. I don’t feel I have much control over illegal immigration and have so very good Mexican friends. When it comes to shapping it takes and educated eye and plenty of experience to foil a blank into something that has that special quality you see in a Haut, Rusty or a Velzy. I know you’ve shaped thousands of boards and I always keep an eye out up here in Santa Cruz for something of yours but haven’t seen one yet. I have always favor the swallowtail configuration but have shyed away from using it on a board over 8’3" or so. It works extremely well on hybrids & shortboards. I’m wondering why you choose that configuration for your gun and what the specks of the board are. I always look forward to you eye opening comments because they’re always laminated with reality. Rich
I’ll have another look at it next time I’m at the surfshop. Some rumours that that one hsop have about 20 lost boards in stock. New record! regards, Håvard
Thanks for those points, Jim. Blanks that come off the machine with 1/8" - 1/4" rail discrepancies sound like a nightmare to deal with. I mean, if that’s the case wouldn’t it almost be easier to shape the board by hand from the start? I don’t quite understand this relaxation phenomenon. It sounds like a headache. I believe the military uses a machine which sculps titanium parts to tolerances measured in microns. Not that surfboard symetry needs to be measured in microns, but what’s the point of a machine that is that far off? I’m not against them, just trying to understand them…thanks. -GH
I just stumbled across this thread. Having built and engineered our own in house CAD, CAM, CNC shaping system. And from first hand knowledge and operation of said technologies, there seems to be quite abit of misinformation/disinformation and paranoia from people that have no first hand knowledge of how exactly this technology actually works. It would be a total waste of the technolgy and time if the boards we shape were off centered by 1/8"-1/4", or that our rails came out that uneven. IMO, That is either a fixturing problem or possibly a problem with how the tool paths were programmed, or the human error in loading the blanks.
Did you guys develop your own surfboard design software or did you use an off the shelf package? I see a few cad programs offer g-code and ability to preview tool paths ie turbocadcam.
Okamoto, the references I am using is blanks that are glued far from the natural rocker and are TRYING to return to the natural rocker. Also, trying to use the vacuum to pull a blank away from what it was glued to. You are very familiar with the owner and operator of this one particular machine, having your holding system done the same. I have a digital level that I used for my profile machine, when they are using a bubble level for the stations. Even KKL, with the experience they have, have delivered me Velzy’s that were 3/16" off on the left side of deck from tail. I have been told the finish wotk on the Oak Foil blanks are the cleanest there are before glassing. The machine can only turn out with accuracy, what has been put into it, material wise and operator imput.
Ghunt, the machine is NOT off, it is following a presrcibed path, it is the material, unlike titanium which is rigid an immobile, the foam flexes under the cutter. Blanks that are cut using too fast a gantry speed have compression lines under the tool paths. The cutter is running over the work before it has acually had time to cut it. The bottom of the cutter causes the foam densisty to increase by the downward force it exerts. When the blank is sanded to the bottom of the flutes, these lines are still visible. Hank Byzak and Shros have started using a heat gun to pre-prep the blanks and cause the bottoms of the flutes to expand and return to the pre cut status. As for going to totally hand shape, the accuracy drops as shapers try to make up for the decreased production. It is a hell of a lot easier to correct a problem that you know will be there, than completely attempt to recreate the design over and over again from scratch. Material and operator error is the number one factor in machine blank problems. Channin had “trained” a young guy who only wanted to get in and get out. He would load the machine and sit under a tree and smoke cigarettes while it ran the program. He would run the gantry speed at 110% and I had a lot of Velzy blanks with 1’2" cedar offsets. The cutter would hit the stringers and drive the wood downwards, with the blank springing back up as it passed. The result was a very high stringer with a scallop on each side of it. If it was only this bad, it could handle it, but the cutter would slam the stringer as it cut the final outline and slide the blank across the vacuum hold downs. When it went to the next side, the blank was sitting a 1/2" over from center, you get the picture. Now the test of a mans mettle is to straightem up and true blanks that have been tortured like this. That’s why when you have these questions, I’ve seen it all, and some of it isn’t very pretty. Ah, anybody can do a good shape off the machine!
Jim, Very informative board! By nature I like to run under the radar so to speak, not into tooting my own horn but try and let the work speak for itself. I don’t think that I have ever met you? Have I? I’m known as somewhat of a recluse, not into the hodge podge end of the business, so to speak. It would be nice to meet you someday. Not sure which machine you are talking about, but we have helped a few machine owners trying to work out some problems they were having. If it is the system I’m thinking about, we have machined some fixturing parts to THAT particular owners spec. All I can say is our fixturing is much different. We have made some recommendations as to what would need to be done, but I don’t think the owner is willing to spend the money or time needed, I feel that he needed to start cutting boards right away with out working out all the minutiae, mainly to recover costs or the need to make payments on the machine. Once you have the foundation of the system level there is no use for a level once the machine is set, you need to check the true level in terms of the machines axis, i.e. a “calibration block” this should be done frequently to maintain true axis between all axis. Once this is done, the fixturing needs to be checked by the actual machine, not the level, the level will serve no purpose at this point. We often use blanks that have an extreme diff from the natural rockers, i.e. at times the blanks will want to return to the relaxed state but this is very rare. We have solved this problem with our fixturing and it is extremely rare that we see this. “The machine can only turn out with accuracy, what has been put into it, material wise and operator imput.” Yes this is so true, the more a human is physically involved the less accurate it becomes.
Jim, I appreciate the response. I figured the machine was a little more accurate than that…and reading Oak’s post it sounds like the accuracy will be increasing quite a bit in the future. -GH
Mr. Oakfoils, The difference between you and other machines such as the KKL and Channin machine is you use yours as a tool in your process, treating it with respect. I don’t think number of parts per hour is your # 1 goal. Channin and KKL machines are just another “piece worker” reaking havok throughout the surf industry. Sluggo
No Sluggo, they aren’t reaking havoc, but when Walker, famous for being miles off the mark on rocker accuracy and inexperienced operators are almost aways culprits, not the machines themselves. KKL over all, turns out magnificent reproductions of the original masters. Their software has the capibilities to scale really well, rail thickness, rocker changes, outline alterations. Off the shelf software is nowhere as flexible.
Personally I feel the “piece worker” mentality does reak havok on the surf industry. More so in the glass shop than the shaping bays. It is a small wonder that a backyard glass job is typically better than a large shops glass job. Ever hear about the container of Takayama’s that shrank after they were overshaped at KKL (Aussie Foam).This was only about 4 years ago. A lot of disappointed Japanese customers. Could have been prevented with a little common sense. Instead the reputation of California boards went down further in the eyes of the Japanese. Your description of the guy smokin cigs under the tree instead of doing a quality job loading blanks on the Channin machine lends a lot to the imagination. Sluggo
Ever hear about the container of Takayama’s that shrank after they were >overshaped at KKL (Aussie Foam).This was only about 4 years ago. A lot of >disappointed Japanese customers. Could have been prevented with a little >common sense. Instead the reputation of California boards went down further in >the eyes of the Japanese. Whatever happened to the term ‘export quality’? regards, Håvard