I personally know a number of longboarders who absolutely despise the HPLBs and everyone who rides them.
Which is to say, different strokes.
…do not need to make a HP longboard; in fact I do not build em but do not follow trends too. You know, an old fish with parallel keels cannot performs better than a modern fish. An old thruster cannot perform better than a new iteration; even for a non great surfer; there are plenty of designs to adjust for those surfers but copying a design for the sake of coolness…I do not know
Yeah, none of that has anything to do with why those guys don’t favor the HPLBs. If someone enjoys a 25# singlefin for the glide in small conditions then adding hyper rocker and a thruster set and glassing it in one layer of 4oz isn’t going to offer them any “progress” on any level.
What some of the “traditional” longboard shapers are talking about now is going back to further refine some of the elements that didn’t get enough attention back in the day due to how fast the designs were moving. Refine the rockers and the rails and the foils and such to get more of what they’re looking for. That’s been going on with these guys for probably the last 20 years now, so it’s not something the hipsters started. .
…traditional longboard shapers do their thing mainly to S California condition but the rest of the copy cats do the same for different surf conditions; hence the tweaking in that last part (aided by great surfers on to provide the right marketing) to try to enhance the functional capabilities. Makes no sense in my opinion, to flogging a dead horse.
Many other longboard designs perform better with conditions outside San Diego etc. By the way, thruster in a longboard only work as a for a niche of people.
This one is a 50/50 rounded rails one and performs very good between 3 - 7ft and you do not need any special technique like with these other that are in the trend.
What I tried to say is that there s no point to still doing outdated designs only for the cool factor or to not be part of the pro circuit type of boards.
I started talking about longboards, but is the same with the fish etc
I think most of us would agree that “personal expression” is a big part of how a person chooses to surf, what kinds of boards the like to ride and what visuals they want to present. The glasswork and the tail block on the board you just posted would be an example of that. Why was the board glassed that way? The color scheme does nothing for the performance or the ride. Whomever shaped and sold the board did it because the style goes with how the surfer wants to surf; and the visuals go with the superficial persona the surfer wants to present.
As is obviously as true for every design trend that has come or gone in the last 50 years. We build boards to suit the way the surfer wants to surf.
I don’t even surf longboards as such. I don’t actually own any, and despite my age I haven’t yet been forced to go that big. I mostly stick to midlengths and the “domesticated” grovelers. But I do build for a couple people who do surf longboards and I try to do what they want to do with their boards.
I’m not seeing what’s so revolutionary about your board reverb. not trying to bash it, just looks like a longboard. See tons of them that look like that.
My personal disdain with surfing is riding for the feedback of others. Riding a wave so that someone on the beach says you ripped that one vs riding the wave for the sake of the feeling the ride gives YOU. Surfing is personal and lost when your in it for others. If you want to ride a boogie, go for it, a 15ft paddle board, have at it. My idea of progressive surfing is most certainly not the same as the guy next to me in the water.
Question; Is a 9’0 Soft-Top a progressive longboard??
BTW, and just in case there’s any question, I have a lot of love and respect for the craftsmanship it took to get that finished board in your pic. I appreciate the work.
First off, I think you should ride whatever board you want that captures your imagination and lets you surf the way you like to surf.The HP long boards I see around here have the short board 1/3 and that’s how they try to ride them. Most ride them because they have become too old, injured, or whatever, to surf something more HP. My personal aesthetic preference is that long boards should be ridden like longboards. Walking it. Nose rides. Cheater fives. Drop knee turns, etc. But I don’t begrudge anyone their fun. Too me watching a guy on a HP board that isn’t a HP surfer is painful. Older designs can be tweaked to provide more HP. So why not just get a HP board? We can debate what IS HP surfing, but I think most of us know what it is when we see it. All boards are a compromise. Most of the fish boards I see today are quite different than what I remember from SD in the 70’s. Have fun gents. Mike
Man reverb, that board is beautiful! Thnx for posting it here.
I like longboards with a round rail in the tail, but I don’t think they are the fastest. I have a 9 footer with a “glider” type shape, rounded pin, and I gave it down rails, harder in the back, and I think it is faster than my square tail longboard with the round rail in back. But the square tail is fun in small gutless waves.
I have fun, and don’t ride a longboard like a true longboarder. So yeah, I’m a kook. I like the traditional longboard style as much as anyone when I’m watching, but when I’m surfing I just want to get a few waves in the crowd. I posted video of myself surfing my 9 foot rounded pin awhile back, nothing impressive, just an old guy with a bad hip getting a wave on a small crowded day. But it was a good wave for me on a day with a lot of sitting and waiting.
I agree trends can be kinda silly at times, and counter productive when a guy is following a trend and not having fun. I have had good fun sessions where guys tell me afterwards how bummed they were not to get any waves in the crowd - and when I suggested they try one of my high volume boards, they just couldn’t bring themselves to ride something so far outside the box. Like, thats not high performance enough for me, so I’ll just sit on my high performance board and be bummed while you ride that fat crutch of a board and have fun.
I like watching talented surfers perform as much as anyone, but in the real world, I think a balanced life is more important than just surfing style or skill - I admire Kelly’s surfing to the hilt, but when he says he wasn’t there to raise his daughter cuz he was travelling the world surfing, I gotta think he missed out. And when I read that Miki Dora financed his carefree surfing lifestyle by scamming his friends, a little bit of the glamour of it is lost for me. So yeah, its cool that some people are really good at surfing, but its just a recreation activity, I dont see taking it too seriously, in the bigger picture. I mean, even Albert Einstein abandoned his daughter in favor of his career, and he took that career to the max, but in my mind he made a grave error not being there for his child.
Honestly, a lot of surfboard design is still a mystery to me, despite years of surfing, and making my own boards. I do respect the pro shaper who works with a team and gets constant feedback on design iterations with various tweaks. And guys like Maurice Cole who have been shaping and riding their own boards at such a high level of proficiency for years.
…hello Wideawake, yes, is similar to many but with a bit different outline (where is the WP)
I put that photo to show a more contemporary longboard that is not a HP one nor one of these trend longboards. This and others were on a surf shop and looked really different than other brands besides.
Hi Rooster and Huck, I think something similar, but I live¿? (not exactly now due to an accident) from building boards but I hate follow trends; even I do not follow my own templates if I do not have good feedback.
If you guys read again what I tried to mention, that is no doubt that you ride the way you ride (but I believe 100% that ALL want to ride at his best possibilities) but me as a boardbuilder, would make the best prescription in my knowledge to the rider not follow outdated designs.
Why to make an outdated design when we have almost 40 years of modern Surfing?
Nobody think to ride a retro board when go to pick up his new CI in a surf shop because is not, so why not happens the same with the longboards and other designs (like single fins–that the people confuse as an onl design not a fin set up by the way—)
So that longboard in the photo is one based on the current designs not discarding the last 50 years of development; yes nothing special (except the different outline) but a longboard of these times.
I am firmly convinced that the success of these other designs is due to the marketing and the “California package” (all to Japan and to the Euro copy cats)
Yesterday in the net I saw one picture as this example: Martin jr in the shaping room with a cinema camera and the right guys (right surfer, right director, right buddy, right owner of a brand etc) There you are a great team to sell your next outdated longboard.
Of course there are consumers for everything, but this is not the point, the point is why? why not offer “modern” longboards? like many does
Again, the same with the fish designs.
Is just proved and tested that certain designs are not perform better and we have plenty of rockers and fin set ups (and sometimes other outlines) that enhance the overall performance, no matter your level; because in the end a surfboard should be a user friendly device.
—Also Huck, is just proved that the leash wrapped that way is problematic then when you are paddling; ha ha
—by the way, I ride (almost 4 years out of the water) small boards (a bonzer style and a modern fish) as my main equipment. Normally solid surf in beach breaks or solid to larger at point breaks. I tend to pass small gutless surf (1-2ft)
4/3 with boots 65-70% of the year
Modern surfing style (snaps, slashbacks on the lip, re entries on the pocket etc, no airs)
Cheers
I’m not specifically disagreeing with anything you posted. And I think your longboard is beautiful - but I can’t see in that pic anything different from a Phil Edwards longboard from 40 or 50 years ago. You would have to list the specific differences, or post better pics.
I do think modern longboard blanks represent a lot of progress in rocker and maybe bottom contour, but other than that I’m not convinced the modern longboard is all that evolved since Phil Edwards. In fact when I watch old video of longboarders from the Phil Edwards’ generation the surfing is often at a higher level than much of the longboarding I see today. Rocker is the one area you can clearly see an improvement in modern longboards.
To me the notion of “progress” is a bit suspect. But when I ride a narrow aspect ratio fin with a small base, that might represent some personal progress in loosening up my turns. So we can all benefit from playing with variables.
Also, you may find, when you get back in the water again and the years have slipped by, that your goals in surfing, and your idea of a good session, have changed.
Hi reverb. I"m not necessarily disagreeing either. I’m just saying it’s all pretty subjective. I common theme in your post seems to be a frustrations with California surf culture and its marketing bullshit. It is bullshit, but it seems to me that isn’t your demographic anyway. I don’t think you live in San Clemente, CA. So why worry about it. Life is too short. You build beautiful boards. One of a kind customs. People with money will pay for that. I do on occasion. I make most of my own, but have a couple custom boards from what I consider master builders. I woudn’t buy a board from a computer designer of any age and expertise. Guys like me are your demographic I would think. Well said Huck. Mike
…hi Huck, actually is different than the classic Edwards design. I cannot find a photo of this one in a stand up position (the main difference is the outline and rocker but the fin is smallerand the area in the last 1/3 is more) but the point or my point in this discussion, is not this board, but these other ultra thin (the last 1/3 and 1/4 in other cases) longboards with squared tails and single fin with those blades tail rails.
How do you guys there do not see its?
If I need to do a big board for a not so hot surfer for smaller surf, I try to go the most user friendly way; by doing these other boards these guys change that friendliness for coolness. You need to really know longboard techniques to ride plenty of these ones; you know, to ride a “hull”, you really need plenty of knowledge and technique so is not a user friendly design is more an involved one.
If you see a modern HP longboard, is very different than a 60s longboard, included the weight (glass work, foam density) The max thickness normally is between 2 1/2 - 2 3/4
I remember the HP longboards some 20 years ago. Here was infested with these; plenty of Brazilian made, due to the PRO competitions etc.
One problem that we had in that time is that besides Clark foam (and other smaller factories there but not in several parts of the world) and the difficult to locate (if you not lived in Aussie land) in that time Burfords, was that most longboards were crafted from one plug! so was near impossible to shape couple other models so we (me in this case) needed to make the most of this very plug to not finish with a HP longboard; due to that some finished with interesting outlines and some others fighting with the waves because of banana rockers for outlines or waves (and surfers) that were not for that.
Regarding developing: Huck do you think that a board with parallel keel fins perform better for the rookie to intermediate than the same shape with canard quad set up? In my opinion, that is to put friendliness to a board, hence the advance (that can be side by side with the cool factor)
If I can return to the water, I will try my best but if I cannot still my points could be similar as a boardbuilder for my customers. I mean, try to do an user friendly device.
My idea of a session still do not changed, if not I had been in the water if not for this other accident 4 months ago.
-I am not saying that I have the holy grail, but man, in my book if you can build a board that is user friendly more than other design, that is what I would try.
Honestly, the places I surf, like Surfer’s Point Ventura, or Malibu, or Topanga, all right points with lots of longboarders, I don’t really see the type of tail you are discussing.
The “cool factor” yes its a real factor, but there are also plenty of guys just riding what they like, by trial and error. I do know guys who paid big bucks for a “cool” shape by a name shaper, with a custom color job, and it sits in the garage because they just don’t enjoy riding it. But lots of boards are surfed by mediocre surfers who just want to catch a few waves and have some fun. Yeah, a custom shape that’s user friendly is the ideal, but in the real world a lot of boards are sold “off the rack”, so they are generic, and often sold more on looks than performance.
Its like saying why do women spend so much time and energy to look beautiful and you hardly ever hear about them working on developing character or moral backbone. But when it comes down to it, what do you really admire in a woman? Its a symptom of our celebrity based society that “coolness” supercedes real value in the marketing world.
Anyway, what really interests me, as a surfboard builder, is what works in a longboard and why, rather than what’s wrong with the corporate industrial surf culture.
My favorite board right now has down rails, but not hard down, until the last 1/3. In the tail, it never gets knike edge sharp, even the tail has a tiny bit of roundover. The board has a little V, but its a rounded pin - the V disappears as the tail narrows to nothing. The blank had a real constant curve rocker, a little more rocker than I like, but yet it works fine. I can turn the board from the middle, without having to walk it a lot.
Honestly, there are a lot of things I would like to work on in my surfing, but when you paddle into consistently crowded waves with lots of young aggressive surfers, and you have an hour or so to get maybe 3 waves in a morning session, you just don’t get to fine tune your performance moves. What you want to do is avoid spending all morning get called off waves, or getting no waves. I have been there, and decided that wasn’t for me. A good session for me is pushing myself to suit up and paddle out when my body feels like crap, catch a few fun waves, having a few kind words for somebody else’s waves, loaning some wax or lending somebody a leash or a fin or some booties, just generally trying to make it a positive experience. Its icing on the cake if I can avoid any new dings, get out uninjured, don’t have any unpleasant confrontations, or better yet, get a compliment in the water, or out, on the waves I rode.
I loaned my square tail lonboard to a much younger friend, he rode it at Malibu, maybe 2 - 4’, and man could he trim that thing in the pocket! He said it didn’t noseride the way he wanted, but he definitely looked good in trim, and the board had great speed through the sections it needed it. This is the one with a very rounded rail all the way through the tail. That board has fat rails, like 60/40, and they stay round all the way. V in the tail, flat through the middle, and no concave in the nose, which I guess is what he didn’t like.
To me what makes a modern longboard better than an old one is the old belly bottoms and flat rockers made them difficult to ride. That, and like you say, the weight factor. But I toured the San Clemente surf museum and looked at some Phil Edwards boards in person, and they looked very much like a contemporary longboard.
I know for certain that in the late 60s longboards were approaching an extreme state of refinement. Unfortunately, in the haste to move on to the next (shorter) thing, some of those refinements were left in the ditch alongside the road.
Certain ride qualities in the more modern ‘reissues’ just weren’t the same. A lot of guys incorporated shortboard design features in the longer boards and got some extra quickness and maneuverability here and there but some sacrifices were made to be sure.
A couple of old timers (Greg Noll and George Downing come to mind) re-examined some of the ancient boards in the Bishop Museum and realized that, as was the case with the late 60s boards, there was a level of refinement in those boards that was going underappreciated. “Calculated drag” was one feature that was mentioned by George Downing in a magazine interview. In the article, he seemed pretty excited when he exclaimed that ‘they knew it all along’ (paraphrased) when speaking of the ancient Hawaiian designs.
That is not to say that modern high performance is bad… it is just a nod to the old timers who understood some of the subtleties that for some reason have been forgotten. To ride for example a Lance Carson or Phil Edwards longboard side by side with a Stewart hi-performance longboard would reveal exactly what I’m trying to say… there is a feel to each that is somewhat of an acquired taste.
…seems that are plenty of longboarders in this forum.
Well, I agree with what you guys are saying may be the subtle distinction with many here, is that I make boards to sell, so I deal with all these market variables hence that I always mention or have a point of view a bit harsh for some body.
I understand that for you Huck or Rooster you make the board you have in your minds for your surfing pleasure and are people that belongs to a surfboard forum so you are interested in design and techniques…no doubt that you are not interested in trends or cool factors, but the market in California for good or bad dictates what is Thee trend for the rest of the world.
Many included me sometimes are floating in a uneasiness regarding future orders (if you not follow one of these trends) I remember Mcding in several PS boards threads talking about the hype with all that.
Again, I understand your positions; may be I need to do what I always did in this forum: help the rookies with some technique etc.
May be I have too much extra time right now, but I am starting to shape some boards, the arms are cooperating right now
Thanks
That is some nice high quality work at every stage on that board reverb. Credit where credit is due. Definitely a Master Journeyman.
Jeff Kramer, Josh Moir, Josh Baxter and Terry Sims would all be examples of “High Performance” Surfing on a longboard. If you have ever seen footage or had the opportunity to watch any of them surf; you know what HP Surfing is. There are others, but these guys really define that type of Surfing.
You’re like me; when you get one that works, you keep it.