loosening up simmons tail

howdy fellas,

what’s the better way to loosen up this 6’ HWS simmons i’m shaping ?

 

i’ve long thought about making a HWS quad fish to see how it rides, but after seeing the hydrodynamica videos it seems to me that the wide simmons tail has a habit of drawing out turns. 

to loosen it up i’m considering putting in a bonzer 5 fin setup on my HWS version while keeping the tail rocker flat (with corresponding concaves for the bonzer fin cluster), but adding a buttcrack to make it more fishlike. the modern fish has a slightly raised tail rocker-- which i might consider if you guys would recommend doing so as a better option to keeping it flat-- in any case i’m looking at picking one of these 2 fishtail options where your inputs would be most appreciated.

option 1 : 

cut depth would be 8 inches from apex to tail tips, but only 6 inches if measuring from the inside corner of the wedge tail tips which are 3 inches wide. if i’m wrong about this option, the foot-long tail tips (measuring from the wings) would hinder turns.

option 2 :

cut depth is just 4 inches from apex to tail tips, but only 3 inches if measuring from the inside corner of the wedge tail tips which would only be 2 inches wide. if i’m wrong about this option, the shallowness of the buttcrack wouldn’t do much to help the board release or turn better as a simmons-fish mutt.

in your experience with fishes, which tail option makes for better release & looser turns? should i stick with the 5-fin bonzer setup or is there a better twin / quad setup out there ?

grateful for your recommendations. budget-wise i can only make this once, so this better be good ! = )

cheers,

Just another idea, what about going shorter and a bit thinner in the tail? Nearly 52 liter is a hell of volume for this board. Don’t know your weight. Too much volume also makes a board hard to turn. I got down to 35 liter at 175 pound and not being a good paddler.

My typical simmons moon fin felt very tracky, but the quad gave me a more loose feeling and the twin was too loose.

good to see the different idea and hope you go ahead with it…like to see and read the outcome…my minis arent tight or tracky, think its a matter of gettin the rocker, bottom contours, fin placement and templates and flex ( fins in general ) right, the planshape too, its all gotta blend together for the mini to perform tighter and more perf type surfing, as well as getting the length and volume right for the surfing in the waves it needs to perform in…everyone has their own take on it, and I have mine, some stick to the traditional and others are really experimenting with this shape and I reckon its great…

howdy parick,

i’m coming down from 8’8" to 9-foot rental LB guns which i’ve been riding since i started surfing, and the volume is just right for my weight at 180-185lbs. i wanted to go shorter while retaining the same volume, hence this simmons-fish hybrid. any less, i’d be having trouble catching waves like with the shorter rental boards i’ve tried. i’m looking for the right fishtail configuration for this HWS, except i’m not sure which tail & fin cluster option works better at this size. 

btw average surf conditions here in PH range from shoulder-high to crappy one-foot mush, and this board is one of three i’m building for my own HWS quiver-- the other 2 is a 6’8" alaia and a more economical HWS remake of the 8’8" LB gun i made from woven plant fiber, which weighs around 20kgs, half-glassed.

cheers,

how about this third option ?

distance between the tips is 6", making the moontail buttcrack 3" deep. will this serve well regardless whether the fin cluster is a bonzer 5 setup or a more conventional quad ?

looking forward to positive feedback from true-blue fish fans

cheers,

id add some tail rocker to loosen it up, especially with that much volume.

 

howdy karl,

will 1 & 7/8" be too much or is 7/8" just right? with which fishtail shape per my 3 choices above?

cheers,

 

I think the Mini Sim tail is plenty loose without this.  They are ridden very short and you just throw them around like a skateboard. Go to Vimeo.com and look up Dane Reynolds Can’t Surf.  He shows us how it is done.

But please do try it, and please do compare against another conventional MS.  I’m all for experimenting.   Keep us posted.

Correction on Greg T:

Dane Reynolds SUCKS at surfing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmLbxvGrUos

I cant for the world embed this video?

 

heya greg,

at 6’ long, this hws would practically be a full-sized simmons for my weight & height (5’7"), that’s why i’m (sort of) set on coming up with a legitimate fishtail that matches the bonzer 5 fin cluster. that’s the finset i have right now and won’t be able to get ahold of any conventional MS here in PH (unless somebody sends me one by easter, lol).

of the 3 tail options above, which one in your opinion would emulate best the feel of of a modern fish quad?

(i say emulate considering i’m staying away from the usual fish, swallow & bat tail shapes)

Cheers,

Thanks Wouter.

Surfiber, I don’t know anything about bonzers, but I think you’ll need about 1 7/8  of tail rocker (if you don’t put some Vee in the tail) or it won’t be loose by any standard.  With a little Vee, say 3/8 inch, you could maybe go 1 1/2 or so for tail rocker.  But I am no shaper.  Just a copier.

As for the tail outline, check the current thread on fish butt cracks.  Lots of good info there.  I defer to them. 

 

Ok, but if I didn’t defer to them, I would go with Option 1.  Deeper and the tail pieces are more narrow.  So maybe when you lay it over on a bottom turn you get more board out of the water.

I’d pick a theme and stick to it.  It seems to me that a HWS board is going to be heavier than average for it’s length - I would think a design that embraces and incorporates that weight would be more functional than a design and surfing style that’s based on lightweight construction.  I don’t think it’s an accident that most HWS fishes and Simms are built with keels and designed for the long carve.  

I also can’t see how keeping a rocker flat and using a bonzer 5 setup would make a board looser than a simm design with keels.  If you want to loosen a tail up add curve to the tail area of the template and rocker.  If you want to do it to a simm move the keels forward a couple inches and perhaps swap out the keels for a high-aspect twin or twinzer like Larry Mabile and others use.  The Hydrodymacia models use small keels at the rail plus a tail-dragger.  

 

Just my opinion.  

thanks for chiming in, greg!

the reason i kept the rocker flat was because of the tri-plane (vee?) concaved bottom this hws will have, adopted from tom wegener’s foam alaia :

i was just concerned about having the tail catch or dig during turns, hence the 3 fishtail options. this experimental simmons hws will have removeable bonzer 5 fins so i can also play around with twin & single fin options. given these elements, should i keep the tail rocker flat or go up to 7/8"? 

heya gdaddy,

that's why it took me so long to find suitable local wood for classic wood-strip boards; i couldn't move forward with my next builds until i stumbled upon a local specie of neem (chinaberry in other woodworking references), which happens to be used in traditional outriggers here, is practically as light as typical board foam and has such amazing grain & color. for sturdiness & color variety i'm adding yakal, langka (jackfruit) and (red & white) laua-an strips. probably mango wood too if my mango flitches cure by the time i get to the deck & bottom layup. in any case i've found a number of hws quad fish threads to refer to, but not yet any one project that incorporates a fishtail and a 5-fin bonzer cluster to a simmons derivative. this is the direction i'm taking, hence the difficulty in deciding on a suitable fishtail for the setup. btw i sort of addressed your recommendations in my reply to greg earlier. given just the 3 fishtail options, which would serve best?

just imagine, i'm going through all this trouble just to be able to ride a simmons-fish-bonzer hybrid here in PH lol

cheers,

[quote="$1"]

I'd pick a theme and stick to it.  It seems to me that a HWS board is going to be heavier than average for it's length - I would think a design that embraces and incorporates that weight would be more functional than a design and surfing style that's based on lightweight construction.  I don't think it's an accident that most HWS fishes and Simms are built with keels and designed for the long carve.  

I also can't see how keeping a rocker flat and using a bonzer 5 setup would make a board looser than a simm design with keels.  If you want to loosen a tail up add curve to the tail area of the template and rocker.  If you want to do it to a simm move the keels forward a couple inches and perhaps swap out the keels for a high-aspect twin or twinzer like Larry Mabile and others use.  The Hydrodymacia models use small keels at the rail plus a tail-dragger.  

 

Just my opinion.  

[/quote]

Good reply gdaddy, I have to agree.  I don't see the tail design adding anything significant to the shape.  I told this poster on another forum that the tail cut-out and the table-flat rocker were probably not good ideas, but got blown off.

What gdaddy said with emphasis on fins. Put boxes in so you can experiment…Once you’ve shaped the board you can’t change it…but you can change the fin.

 selective attention disorder, huck? kindly re-read my reply so you don’t come off like roy stewart whose understanding of sharing the stoke is crapping on other people’s threads for self-promotion purposes " )

while you’re at it, you might as well say something about the concaved tri-plane bottom adopted for this hws. or maybe you missed that too ?

yup woody, i’m just waiting for my fcs plugs for the bonzer side bites. i’ll be using the same bonzer 5 cluster for the hws LB gun i’m rebuilding

cheers,

now that the well’s drying up on fishtail variants, i find this
http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2230103&Main=2229940

well how about that, tits on a fish hmm !

Just curious why you’ve called the board a Simmons, Surfiber?

Apart from the S deck it’s Simmons dna seems to have been eaten by a fish.:slight_smile: which is just bonzer.