Man Vs. Machine

General Discussion
41
Quote:
Thanks for the info Haavard. I'm really interested in finding more information on this. You seem to have allot of knowledge on this subject. Do you know where I could find specifications on some of the machines that are out there now? (i.e. 3DM, APS3000, Shapers.com.au cnc machine) I would like to break down the machine specs to find the cost of the individual parts. And, then see if I can put together my own design in solidworks or another engineering program. Do you build or work with CNC machines?

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CNC is Computer Numeric Controlled.

The basic surfboard shaping machine consists of

  1. a cutter

  2. X translation stage and stepper motor

  3. Y translation stage and stepper motor

  4. Z translation stage and stepper motor

The board is mounted on the translation stages using an appropriate jig. The jig needs to be able to align the board with the machine to a HIGH degree of accuracy. Small errors in alignment of the translation stages and the surfboard will become large errors in cutting. This is REALLY a problem when you start considering the X translation stage needs up to 11 feet of coverage.

The cutter is turned on. The computer tells the stepper motors how to move the board to cut it.

That is it.

The better machines for surfboards have better jigs for holding the board aligned to the translation stages, and better software for designing the surfboard. There is nothing inherently expensive about it. You could be up and running with a decent setup for $6k-$8k if you knew your way around a CNC machineshop beforehand. For the cutter an old milling machine would be good. Some people use CNC routers, but I find that a little too cheap and easy and not robust enough. You really need a robust coupling of the cutter to the translation stages, and mills are made for that purpose. Routers are made to be held by hand.

HTH.

42

pmsl

especially the toaster

the guy operating the machine has a pretty crappy job though aye

may as well be feeding logs into a wood chiper

a no brainer

working for a no brainer

making no brainers

for no brainers

so the can impress some more no brainers

i rather play ambrose in a game of chess than a puter anyday

43

This particular subject just bitch slapped me today and it made me want to PUKE! First some background: I am a boatbuilder by trade( wood and glass sportfish yachts) and have been making boards for about 16 years for the pure joy of it (and occasionally cash for friends). I shape, laminate, sand (paint,polish,repair,restore etc) the whole deal. I have done contract glassing for several other shapers in town over the years, twice as many as I actually made myself. Still not a huge amount at 262 boards for my own logo.

But, just today I see in my local surf shop a new brand by a kid in my neighborhood. He doesn’t shape them. A shaping machine does. He doesn’t glass them or even paint them, a contract glass house does. But he is popping right into my little world with his super-duper boards and his “Mr. surfboard designer” pose.

It never upset me too much when Al Merrick or Rusty use the machines to plow out their products. I didn’t get too jacked up by the chinese mowing them out in their mega-factories. I figured their quality wasn’t quite there since “Charlie don’t surf”. I have always felt like there was a solid place for the local guy who can hand-make you whatever you want at a resonable cost. But this just made me want to puke. I guess anyone with a couple of bucks can go to this machine and walk away with a nearly finished shape, take it next door to the big glassworks and then be in the “business”. I guess I feel like all my work and knowledge mean diddly now with “Mr. surfboard designer” in town. Let’s see this twit make a chambered balsa gun with 9 redwood stringers from raw wood.

44

Interesting thread.

I’d use the corner APS if it were cheap enough, but most likely to pop out a draft of a surfboard I wanted to dial in, not call it done. It would be nice to have something like that I could use that’s set up to dispose of the dustin an environmentally-sound way. And if there were epoxy guys as good as Moonlight around (in the same building!), that would be pretty hard to beat–I would always want to do the whole foil, I guess. If they had a big room with a lot of stands (and tools) you could rent time with to finish out your APS draft… a sandpaper vending machine, a bar…

Interesting story here though–the most serious magic craftsman ever gets trumped (maybe) by craftsmanship andscience and technology–

Texo-Hungarian chemist works for (and beats?) the Stradivari sound http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/28/MNGAAN913G1.DTL

45

http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/

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The foam surfboard industry usually produces such generic shapes that it resembles a globally franchised mindless popout popout machine anyway, so what’s the difference ?

The shaping machine does what the customer wants, unlike a lot of shapers, who do what the mindless surf industry machine tells them to do. . .

So which option is more man and less machine ?

.

47

Yeah that’s true of off the rack boards, but the discussion was mostly about customs and backyards, I think, or I thought–maybe just my own lens though

greg

48

I have the greatest respect for craftsmen who make things well and I understand the problem of the fast buck/no knowledge wannabees using generic board shapes to enter the industry.

What troubles me is the lack of understanding here of the computer design process. It’s not wiggle a mouse, hit a few keys and out pops a board. You have to apply as much thought (if you’re not ripping someone else’s idea off) to what you want and how you’re going to achieve it. Then you have to try to get those into the computer. You can only define how the rails and bottom look in a couple of places - the software does the translation between slices (does the templates fitting to your measures, in traditional terms). If your inputs are off you get weird lumps and bumps in the board (just like mismatching your templates). Even if the computer screen stuff looks good different things show up after cutting, because the screen doesn’t see small variances. The boards invariably need hand tweaking once the cut blank is looked at (assuming you know how to use light to look at the flows and lines). I am talking hi-performance boards here that I’m confident to surf in hectic conditions - not pop-outs for people to flounder on - I’m sure these can be generated in minutes, but that goes back to the problem of fast buck/no knowledge wannabees using generic board shapes to enter the industry.

The guys I know that machine cut boards for themselves have taken years to get templates that they’re happy with - in much the same way that hand shapers struggle to refine their designs. The dream (or nightmare) might be for an instant fix, but the reality is quite different.

Any hack can cut a dog - does the tool make that much difference?

49

The Irony.

So much talk about pop-outs, non-shapers selling boards and stealing designs from talented shapers. I find that point ironic.

Correct me, pop-outs are molded. I want to make boards to make something different, my own, not generic pop-outs for the masses. I can go into any surfshop and buy a shaped-for-the-masses board with the label of an uber-shaper on it. And oh yes, it will have been cut on a machine.

I won’t even say that’s a bad thing. I know if I want a good predictable board. I can, and do, go to the expert/craftsman and pay him for what he’s perfected already. I love the boards I’ve bought from some of the top guys. They’re great for a reason. Full respect to their experience and their product.

Personally, I’m coming from a different angle. I want to experiment with out paying an arm and leg for it as a custom. Not a pop-out. I bought a board from a shop and specified a mod’ from stock. Didn’t come out as specified and was a dog. Sold it. I want my idea to show up in foam, not some skewed interpetation by someone else. Then I can see if I’m right or wrong. I’ll prove my own pudding.

My daughter surfed this summer. If she wants a board, no doubt she’ll love to do her own graphics, in our garage, with my airbrush. That would be fun for her. If I’m lucky, she’ll want to be involved in the building. Potential for building her joy of craft, a foundation for understanding shape and construction, and some father/daughter quality time? Priceless. Not gonna get that laying down plastic down at the shop.

The above, all reasons why I want to make boards. Reasonable.

I want good boards. Not asym’ mutants that might (not likely) be magic. Reasonable.

Making 2 or 3 a year with no apprenticeship, estimating $250 in materials (conservative), and maybe half dozen before I stop making mutants = $1500 in waste. Not reasonable.

Computer aided potentially non-mutant first board. Reasonable.

I’m just saying. There are other reasons besides making generic, “pop-out like”, soul-less, imaginationless, boards through a machine. I find the machine an easier way to express my ideas for better or worse. New ideas are good right? An architect doesn’t have to build the house. The virtuoso doesn’t have to build the piano. It’s possible that new ways of doing things, might bring in new ideas. Hail the shaper that can do it all. I’m a surfer who needs a crutch.

Then again, maybe we should all quit this site and become pen pals. Stupid computer aided communication. It’s killing penmanship and shifting stationary production to Taiwanese computer plants.

I hope there’s room for differing methods and ideas.