Mini Simmons design advice

General Discussion
1

Hi Guys

I am looking getting at a mini simmons made and have looked through past posts to find out as much info as I can. I know exactly what I want out of the board performance wise but now I am just working on designing the board to do what I want it to do. I am a novice shaper/designer so any advice be much appreciated, escpecially from more experienced mini simmons shapers.

Ok, what do I want out of this board and a bit about me? I am 40 years old, am 80kg (176 pound) and 5’9". Moderate fitness abilty, slightly above average surfing ability, surf about twice a week. I would like to mostly use this board in waist to head high slop but still would like to use it when it’s slightly overhead and punchy as well. I ride quads all the time but I do not want this board to be a quad. I want a true mini simmons with all the speed and looseness of twin keel fins. Look to design a board with a good balance of speed and manouverabilty, kinda an all round performer in small waves. Something with good down the line drive for the points yet with the ability to allow for tight radius turns off the top (off the lip snaps and reos, slide the tail etc) and full round house cut backs. Basically a good balance between speed, down the line drive and off the top manouverability.

The plan shape I have in mind is pretty much based of the Infinity Tombstone as seen here:

http://www.infinitysurf.com/shortboards/tombstone/

The following is what I have in mind, please advise if I am on track, my biggest unkown factor is regarding the rail shape (step deck or rolled?) fin placement and if the wide point should be in the centre or not. Ok, my plans so far:

The dimensions I have in mind are: 5’1” x 21.25" and about 2 3/4 or just under. Most of my other boards are between 33 litres and 35 litres and I am thinking that just looking at the literage based off the tombstone that these dims should hit just about the right volume I need to be able paddle my carcass!

Bottom contours, I am thinking subtle rolled entry to moderate single concave, nice and simple.

I am thinking the tail width 12" up should be about 17 3/4" wide and the tail block about 13" approx. Am thinking about 3/4 of an inch of tail rocker. All that sound about right?

Wide point pretty much dead centre?

Nose width 17 3/4" and nose rocker about 3 inches?

Seems like a pretty balanced board but of course I may tweak that to fit the tombstone planshape.

I am wondering if the boards rails should have step deck or just a flat deck with some roll? I need to keep the volume high but allow some responsiveness in the rail…

Regarding fin placement, I am wondering if the following sounds about right:

Fins set 3" inches up from the tail, 1.25" inches in from the rail? Hows that?

4 degrees cant? 1/4 inch tow in or about 85 degress approx, sound right?

Some people are saying no cant and no tow, others say different, of course much of this is personal prefference but keep in my my goal is to design a board that has a balance between speed and down the line drive and manoverability and allow for some tight tight bottom turns and off the top snaps and reos, a balance, which is going to be a trade off. Hoping those fin placement specs hit the middle of the road to allow for the best of both worlds…

Thanks for your advice in seeing that I am on track with the design :slight_smile:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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There is a thread on here called Mini Sims Madness.  You should look that one up.

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That thread is something of a train wreck, the bar of soap thread might be more relevant,

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/bars-soap-your-laboardatory-post-your-mini-simmons-pics

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If you want to build one as authentic as possible - just forget any tail rocker and go wider.nose, tail, and block wider than what you have.also, i found out it has a lot of nose rocker. Probably slightly more than 3". Probably around 3 1/2"? But i am not sure? Hopefully a sims expert would chime in.

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Holy shit that was funny, Mako!

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Actually both those threads are a wreck, the bar of soap thread had some good stuff on it but every page was EXACTLY the same when I click next…

Thanks shapaholic for you advice, apreciated. Can I ask, would absolutely 0 tail rocker make the board hard to turn? I am thinking based on what you said that nose and tail width be wider so am now thinking about 1 inch more, like 18 3/4 nose and tail width, 14 inch tail tail block… I figure a 14 inch tail block would pull the tail in a bit and allow for more manouverability, should I go wider still? When the plan shape is drawn out there will be some tweaking to make it look more like ‘the tombstone’.

My biggest four unknowns are tail rocker (thinking half inch now???), centre wide point???, stepped deck or just a flat deck with some roll into the rail??? and fin placement arrangement??? Regarding fin placement, so far I am thinking the following will give me a happy medium of drive and manouverability:

Fins set 3" inches up from the tail, 1.25" inches in from the rail???

4 degrees cant? 1/4 inch tow in or about 85 degress approx???

Any dialed in mini sim shapers have any feedback?

cheers

Dan

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I found this at another forum, seems like good info.

You pull the tail and then they lose the effect. Start making them “performancey” by pointing the keels at the center of the nose putting curve in the outline then they don’t have the unbridled skim they should. Then it is more of a hybrid simmons, won’t go as good in the softies. If you are a young and light shortboard shredder get a 4’10" X 21" + maybe but keep the tail block 13-14" wide. About as wide as where your backfoot is on a performance board actually. And make sure it only has .5" or less of tail rocker. Fin position should be about 3" from tail tip because that will be where you will stand and where the highest water pressure is. That is what the simmons thing is about, as much planing surface as you can cram under your feet then stop, all lines straight as possible.

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I really like minisimmons boards, but I find people want them to do things they aren’t designed to do,  but they have the potential to do it all if you’re not so set in your ways and apply different technique. You ride it different, you tell the board what to do! The speed is what I like they are built for down the line, but you can force it into whatever you want. I have two right now one is stiffer because the fins are maybe 2" off the tail double foiled 0tow 0cant other is loose fins 4"off the tail 80/20 foiled 1/8 tow 4deg cant stiffy is 5’10" loosey is 5’7" both are 23 wide. if you make an all around smaller one I can see it being more maneuverable. I like wide point in the center I’ve seen some with a pulled in tail only and they seem harder to come off the top with, I would even say I like the tail slightly wider than the nose

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Waveripper - i don’t know how they ride yet, but I’ve heard they can be maneuvable - to - stiff depending on how it’s built. My geuss is, folk’s aren’t build n em right - as Joe Baugeus says they turn really well. Anyway, if you break down his board you can clearly see it’s foil is mostly on deck side. But it does have a substantial amount of nose rocker. Its not anything too deep - just a smooth curve so as not to push water as he says. My geuss is prob 3 1/4- 3 1/2" nose rocker? But i dunno for sure? It’s prob close enough. Fyi im building one in the next mos and I’m ordering a custom blank w zero rocker on rear half and prob 3" in nose, but I’ll cut in bit of nose rocker at entry.i think it should be ok. Anyway, i think we should prob stick to the single to dub concave w hint of vee right out tail block as the orig. Dunno about you, but i want mine as close to orig as i can get it. Then if i feel it can use changes, well, i can build a slightly alterered version.

I think I’m goin 15" at tail block as it’s supposed to plane from nose to tail.

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As for fin settings, i think it looks like the fins are up 2- 2 1/2"-4" , and set off rails 2"? But I’m guessing. I’ll prob go 3 1/2" up, tow in 1/8", and cant them slightly. Lastly, the step deck, i think, MUST BE, a part of the equation. So we have to lose foam up there somehow; cross cut it, surform it off, plane it- whatever.

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This is getting good

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Lol again

Think it’s pretty hard to go wrong with one. They don’t need much rocker.
I vote build one and if you don’t like it make another :slight_smile:
Feeling inspired off to the shed to cut one out now

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I have built 5 mini simmons for myself and 3 for others, they all turn great
All have the usual rolled entry to flat to single with chines but not all have had the same outline rails or fins. They all surf fun. I currently only have one in my possession coz my mates all have the others. Its pretty hard to stuff up a mini simmons to the point that it wont surf. I just shape mine from a fish/ fun blank, being 5 footish you can usually eliminate most of the rocker from the blank when you chop the excess nose and tail off.

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@shapaholic fins are USUALLY placed at one inch up and one inch from rail when using a traditional moon keel . I have always stuck with one inch from rail but i have placed them about 2 inches up before.
On some others i have used sea Sheppard type keels and placed them up a touch further. Just got this info from researching threads on here using the search function .

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Waveripper,

Hobby guy here so take it for what it’s worth.  From your original post it looks like you pretty much know what you want. So why not order one from Infinity or Baugess? Even tho this is Sways and I think you should build your own.  I’ve built 3 for myself.  The first was a homemade eps blank. Surfed shitty. The second was designed better.  It had moonshaped keels in the traditional location.  Paddled fast, but was too stiff, even for an old guy like me. It held a trim line really well. Almost like a longboard.  Might as well have a long board then and get in even sooner, beat the crowds, etc.  The third I put panel vee in the tail instead of the single concave.  Moved the fins(Doc Keels) up to 6.5 inches and it surfed really well.  Not as well as my fishes, tho.  So for a small wave board in a short platform for down the line pumping and carving cutbacks I prefer my fishes and havn’t built another.  I may revisit the species. I don’t know.  Fishes are a better design for me. Good luck.  Mike

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Hi waveripper - 

I had the opportunity to watch Joe Bauguess shape on at one of the Sacred Craft shows.  He has a specific formula dialed in.  There is a defined spot in which he shapes the single tail concave and from that spot, he starts the belly in the bottom which extends forward.  I wasn’t able to put a rocker stick on it but it looked as if he had at least some rocker behind the already mentioned spot.  

I did a Google search for IMAGES and it shows a bunch of this type of board.  Joe Bauguess is likely doing them different now from when I watched him but that’s just a hunch on my part.

In any case, he made up the design as did Bob Simmons with his original.  Check some of the images and make something original up for yourself.

PS… HERE is a little video showing a lot of detail on an original.  

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Wow, thanks for the responses from ALL you guys. So many different approaches, which do I take? I think the general consensus is to keep the tail block wide, 15 inches is sounding about right for my 5’1, 13 inch tail block is not going to have the speed I am after. It’s supposed to be a mini simmmons after all!!!

Interesting feedback Damn about your two mini sims. One loose and one stiff and the stiff one having the base of the fins set 2" off tail with 0 tow and 0 cant. And  your loose one is set 4" set off the tail with 1/8 tow 4deg cant. Thats very useful info, thankyou. Also interesting u said that you like it wide point centre. I think wide point centre is going to be the go for a happy medium on this board.

The feedback I am getting, or what i make of it, is that the fins set less than 2 inches from the tail is going to be stiff but I guess that is also if the tow and cant is also set a 0. Fins set at 2 inches from the tail with 1/8 inch tow and 4 degree cant may be looser. Taking your experience Damn, it sounds like for a happy medium all round approach, if  fins set 3 or 3 1/4 inches up, 1 1/8 - 1 1/4" in from rail, 1/8- 1/4" tow and 4 degree can’t is going to be my happy medium. Somewhere around those numbers there abouts.

My logic is, and correct me if I am wrong, that if I am going to set the fins up slightly more than your traditional 1 inch from the tail, 0 cant 0 tow (is that the traditional mini simmons) and instead set them 3 1/4 inches up, and seeing that it will have 4 degree cant and and maybe 1/8 - 1/4 tow, then to compensate on the loss of drive with added cant and fins set further up, then the tail rocker should compensate for that loss of drive. So I am thinking that the tail rocker could be dead flat and certainly no more than 0.5". Do all those specs sound like a happy medium?

Can I also ask, the traditional mini simmons apparently has the fins set 1 inch up from tail and 1 inch in from rail from what I have researched, i dont know what the original Bauguess design was regarding tow and cant. Can I ask, if anyone knows, if the fins are going to be set firther up, should the fins also be set further away from the rail to keep it relative or will it still be better to have the fins set at the 1 inch away from the rail?

I am only a novice but I figure that if the fins have 0 cant, 0 tow and are set right back only 1 inch from the tail then the board is going to have a heap of drive but be really stiff. Seeing my design will have the fins set 3 1/4 inches up 1/4 - 1/8 tow (not sure which one, the numbers are starting to get a bit cerrebral in my head now) and 4 degree cant to allow for a pivotal loose feel, the rocker should be dead flat in the tail which is going to add in some more speed. I am beginning to appreciate that there are a lot of variables that affect how a board goes.

Also, cheers Shapaholic. 3 1/4 nose rocker is sounding on the money then and I am going with what u said on the 15 in tail block to make it as close to an authentic mini sim.

 

 

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This video below is pretty cool.

Joe Bauguess Inventor of the very FIRST Mini Simmons

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Sorry, I just read finsOUT4theBOYS post where he says “I have always stuck with one inch from rail but i have placed them about 2 inches up before.”

I figure thats a YES for having the fins at one inch from the rail even though the fins will be set 3 1/4 up.

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Sorry i forgot to mention i have only ever done them with 1/8th of tow and zero cant. Im by no means an expert lol i just tried what id read here and usually what you read here works when put into practice.