More Cant makes for much FASTER boards! BillB?

Quote:

More Cant makes for much FASTER boards!

This is a quote from BillBarnfield on another thread. It caught my eye as different to to the “more cant is looser” idea.

Care to comment further BillB or anyone?

Increases speed by reducing the ‘‘snowplow’’ effect of toe-in, also reduces tracking. (loosens) Directly observed by me in

Sept./Oct. 1970, during testing, while developing the Presslock removable sidebite tri-fin system. The first in the industry, I might add.

Take the Probox 8 degree insert and surf. Now take the Probox 4 degree insert and surf. The 4 degree board will be faster.

Do the test for yourself if you don’t believe me.

Disclaimer: There is a concerted effort between rocker and fin placement. So there is a lot more working here other than fin cant…That is a nother thread that has been beaten to death adnausum

Quote:
Quote:

More Cant makes for much FASTER boards!

This is a quote from BillBarnfield on another thread. It caught my eye as different to to the “more cant is looser” idea.

Care to comment further BillB or anyone?

hmmm. well I never looked at it that way.

However, a board slightly or more on edge can have its inside fin fully engaged yet have less board in the water, this would relate to the speed aspect.

However, i’ve always viewed cant as a holding aid allowing the fin to have more hold while the board is on edge.

More cant , more edge hold, more of a bottom turning board.

More cant = more drag = less speed. More drag the more control of the board or manuverability. Some waves don’t need speed to surf they need agility…think San Diego reefs. Some waves don’t need agility, they need speed to surf…think Indo. So in my little twisted world there is a different set up for different waves.

But the more straight and upright the fins are…the faster you will go.

These threads on theory are always filled with unsubstantiated contrarian opinion.

Now I could be wrong but,

anyone care to explain how possibly: more cant = more drag

I can see how cant adds more hold when the board is on edge, but I would not describe

the major attribute of this feature as more drag. Nor do I see how describing the variable

of cant = more drag as being useful when tweaking the variables.

Cant increases the horizontal or ‘hydrofoil’ area of a fin, and thus has the potential to reduce drag and increase speed

Whether or not that happens in practice will aslo depend on the toe in, and other factors, no doubt Bill has found a good combination of increased cant and other factors (less toe in maybe ? ) which gives the board more speed.

This doesn’t mean that just winding up the cant is automatically going to speed the board up.

Keep in mind that Mr Barnfield has used gps and a speedmate impeller based speed recorder to record speed, so he’s pretty thorough and is no doubt correct IMO.

.

Hey Bill nice to see you back after your holiday from Sways

Cheers

Roy

Interesting input. Seems there is a point at which cant starts to overcome its benefits.

Seems as though straightening the fins and laying in more cant is a way to reduce angle of attack of fins in 2 diemnsions

What’s the breakpoint between “good cant” and “too much cant”?

Bonzers side fins are canted 20 degrees. I’ve never heard anyone say they (Bonzers) are slow…except maybe Roy.

…the bonzer s side runners are super tilted but they re SMALL in height compared with a thruster side fins

…in my opinion, in thrusters the problem with the canted fins is with excesive toe in

…a canted fin in a bottom turn doesnt generate too much drag

Quote:

More cant = more drag = less speed.

I don’t understand this. Why would rotating the fin further increase the drag? given the fins where parallel to the stringer in the first place, if they have 4 or 8 degrees of can’t they would still be parallel to the stringer. I could understand them loosing some drive though, which will give less speed.

Edit: I don’t understand why more cant would make for less drag either.

is that speed with no rider input

or speed from rail to rail carves in the pocket

i personally find that less cant allows for a very positive feeling when pumping speed (and a bit harder to do full rail turns)

as you increase the cant the board seems to feel lighter and less responsive when pumping(and a bit easier to do full rail turns)

going in trim i wouldnt know

cuz i dont do that

The tradeoff is a more positive and thrusty bottom turn, is traded off for less drag when you are in between turns.

Riders who are very good at staying on rail generally prefer less cant because they are good at avoiding the situation where a thruster snowplows.

Bigger waves benefit less from more cant than smaller waves. In smaller waves the water flows more towards the rail than in bigger waves.

The snowplow effect can be 100% averted in other ways without compromising the bottom turn.

If you want to feel the snowplow effect take a thruster, make a bottom turn, straighten out, and weight your front foot to flatten the board. On a thruster the brakes will turn on and it does not matter how much cant you use. On SurfTrux the board will take off on you.

I felt a bonzer was a slow board in big waves. I just derived no benefit from the 5th gear because the board was planing so dern high anyway, and I missed the extra hold from an uncanted rail fin. Under my feet, I feel that the toed-in modestly canted rail fin is the most important place on the board to have a fin for controlling a surfboard. Opinions will vary, of course, depending on rider experience and wave choice. But whereas I enjoyed bonzers in waves up to overhead, when it got much bigger I didn’t enjoy them anymore and felt like it was holding me back.

Quote:
Quote:

More Cant makes for much FASTER boards!

This is a quote from BillBarnfield on another thread. It caught my eye as different to to the “more cant is looser” idea.

Care to comment further BillB or anyone?

Aloha Condition_Red

Sorry I wasn’t available available at the start of this thread. I was busy working on a batch of boards. And still am!

Bill Thraikill and Roy are on track with my findings. (can you believe those guys are in agreement… maybe!)

Here is a previous thread that includes many of my thoughts and others on the issue.

http://www.swaylocks.com/…iew_flat;post=261303

Now that ProBox is widely available, everyone needs to install them and share their empirical experiences with CANT! Get busy boys!

Bill, that white gun on the racks, just under the neon lights, makes me shiver…

Any chance that we can have a more detailed look at it? That would make my day. And the next. And …

I don’t know about faster, but my V bottom boards ride much better with 4 degree or 6 degree fins compared to 8 degree cant fins. Just my 2 cents.

Aloha Condition_Red

I forgot about this thread

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=226228

You might have noticed it recently popped on the forum again. It has some great discussions in it.

Quote:

I don’t know about faster, but my V bottom boards ride much better with 4 degree or 6 degree fins compared to 8 degree cant fins. Just my 2 cents.

Aloha Puna Surf

Your experience paralles mine it appears. Generally speaking around 4° to 5° seems about right for vee bottoms.

At some point we (industry) are going to have to create a better system for notation of the Cant in fins. We really need to be measuring degrees off of a line level with the bottom, (imaginary line from rail to rail) rather then off of each side panel. I don’t know how we could facilitate this but the current system while good for installing fins doesn’t lend itself to simple comparisons between boards unless one also knows the angles of the vee or concaves.

Puna… if you put your fins on at 0° and then at 6° would it seem faster or slower at either degree of set up?

For me - resinhead’s comment is right on the money. When you can change the cant angle in a few seconds and then get back in the water , you will know the answer for sure under those conditions. No b.s. theorizing.