yes I ride FCS only because I’ve made a lot of sticks with them and have the fin inventory to experiment with. If had to do it again it would be either lokbox or Edge or combination.
After lots of experimentation, I like G5s front and either G5, AM or Rusty center. In real small surf, G3s in front for reduced drag.
Nice offer! I’d like to test drive your prototypes and I can pay for the shipping. September/October is usually very good surf wise. I’ll send you an email.
Regards,
Dave
“After lots of experimentation, I like G5s front and either G5, AM or Rusty center. In real small surf, G3s in front for reduced drag.”
Hey Meecrafty- I’ve watched that J-Bay footage of Slater too- and I too guessed to that those front fins are AMs, and that’s really interesting since his front templates for his usual K2.1 set are more upright than the trailer (the K2.1 trailer is actually the G3) but the but the AMs are more raked and longer. Also he was riding a rounded pin quite a bit longer than I’m used to seeing him surf, so I imagine his goal was making the waves as far as possible and being able to draw longer turns around or over sections when needed, he having no trouble with shorter pivot turns when needed.
So you usually like an equal or longer trailer fin then? I noticed both FCS and Rusty have both recently actually espoused larger front fins for smaller surf with the idea being larger outer-side only foils give more lift than a smaller fin does. I’ve tried this with the FCS big Occy fins in front with a G5 trailer and loved the results. If you have the Rustys already it may be worth a try since they are only slightly smaller than the Occys, but the Occys also have the whole center of the fin shifted forward a bit over the tabs, so those pivot faster. Also have you tried the new FCS FG-5 double foil, extra-toe-in fiberglass/foam? They are very light, give the tail noticeable bouyancy and lift, and the ability to really hit turns sharp and hard. Best fin set ever in most of my boards, but mysteriously a dog in one where added drag was unfortunately apparent. But it’s possible the plugs were set with excessive toe-in on that one.
Oops forgot to add for clarification that although I agree the smaller G3 fins in front may reduce drag, the effect of the larger Occy fins used in front in increase in lift and increase turn thrust (pump speed) seems to more than offset the slightly increased pure drag resulting from a longer fin. I luckily have access to a good reefbreak for testing purposes, long and consistent with a dependable tough end section that is a good indicator of speed, and the bigger combo has just makes it all the way more often than the G3 combo I used to use.
Hey TD,
Its mostly attributable to the power of the waves and my style. Most of the time, my local waves are mushy so I try to use fins which keep drag down to a minimum but that I can still drive. Also, in mushy surf I tend to mellow my surfing style and I just don’t like the pivoty twinfin feel of big front fins cuz it doesnt suit my style (I think Parko and Knox have the best styles today with Curren setting the base standard).
No matter what the conditions Im always trying to set up a solid bottom turn even at the expense of top turns…for me there’s nothing like setting the rail at the bottom so I like a trailer that will hold. I use different sized centers because FCS has no fore-aft adjustement…if it did (like lokbox) I would likely use the G5 in most conditions and AM when headhigh to overhead.
If I feel even the slightest tail slide I go bigger center.
Those JBAY waves, although overhead, where on the open faced slightly mushy side so I think Slater was trying to draw out his turns just a bit more…vertically that guy is just on another level than everyone else…Irons even admitted that Slater is still the best - most radical.
Style digression…interesting observation I had the other day…one of the big style differences between Slater/Curren/others and Irons is that Irons keeps his head so still…always looking down the line…it kind of makes his style a little more boring. Style is so nuanced…in an interview when discussing style, Curren said he’s thinking about where the board needs to go and do and if you see him set up a bottom turn, he looks down the line first near the top and then looks just in front of the board at the beginning of the bottom turn. Sounds korny but those slight nuances is what seperates Curren from everyone else. Also, he almost never raises his hands/elbows above his shoulders…arms are very close to his torso, unlike Slater who throws his arms all over the place. BTW, I dont care much for contest surfing, but I find watching and then trying to visualize myself doing, helps a lot during those torturous flat spells.
“Also have you tried the new FCS FG-5 double foil, extra-toe-in fiberglass/foam? They are very light, give the tail noticeable bouyancy and lift, and the ability to really hit turns sharp and hard”
With that kind of positive critique Im going to have to get a set! Thanks for the tips.
Regards,
Dave
impressed tubedog…very impressed with your appraisal of fins…
its clear to me you can surf…
there is no way you could give such good an accurate feedback if you couldnt…
you said the foam extra toed fcs fins made one board go like a dog??? but they worked real well in others …
question???
the board they didnt work in , did it either have a softer rail into the tail or a little more tail rocker(like a later flip)???
did the board feel like it was responding to late ,then whipping around at the last minute but then not driving out of the turn??? (almost a turn and stop feel???)
if none of those scenarios apply …
what was the basic setup on the board they didnt work in???
keep up the good surfing work…
regards
BERT
I love swaylocks.
I was just wondering what rake does on a fin as and the next day it’s right here in front of me…
regards,
Håvard
Dave-
Complete agreement that Curren is the baseline. Parko also tops now for nonchallant grace. I’ve sometimes said Slater is the model for how I’d like to surf, if I’d had ten espressos too. It is fun to do and watch but almost borders on manic. Have you watched that kid Dean Morrison (great at Jbay on Chords)? Looks most like the Curren combination of style and natural power flow I’ve seen. I almost thought it was Curren. Yeah I think a slightly larger center fin would work as you describe it. Years ago I used to custom order all my glass-ins that way too, much to the consternation of my glasser. Worked well for dredging power barrels.
“question??? the board they didnt work in , did it either have a softer rail into the tail or a little more tail rocker(like a later flip)??? did the board feel like it was responding to late ,then whipping around at the last minute but then not driving out of the turn??? (almost a turn and stop feel???”
Bert- Yes to all. Amazingly accurate! I usually avoid boards like that from past bad experience but gave one yet another chance. You are the guru’s guru of design understanding. Now please help me nail it down again on the details why, so I’ll be reinforced again in my understanding on why this doesn’t work for me so I won’t make this mistake (yet) again.
Softer rails are do not release as well as hard edges. It sounds like you ride hard off your tail. You’ll want less tail rocker so you have a larger planing area and sharper rails for better release. The fuller fins just exagerate the stickiness this type of tail will provide a back foot oriented surfer especially in weaker surf.
thanks tubedog, im flattered by the tag…
but im actually gonna give the title ,guru’s guru to tom …
tom is the best at packing the most amount of meaning into the fewest words…
its my personal opinion he has the best overall understanding of surfing design concepts of anyone ive come across…
every conversation ive ever had with tom , hes right there , in the same square millimeter ,always knows exactly what im talking or asking about…
ok here come the long winded bert version…
theres some combinations in surfboard design that are ugly…
ive given the same fins to 10 different team guys 7 come back raving,2 come back with “im not sure” and 1 comes back “yuk worst fins ever” even tho i thought they were the best???
so then you look at boards and styles of surfers and theres common denominators …
when you toe fins in a little more , they kick you into the turn a little later ,(like your waiting longer for your board to respond)…
also a fuller foil when it does get an angle of attack will kick in hard and provide plenty of pull into the turn, so you get a good tight hook…
these type of fins can bring some boards to life…
but on other boards it exaggerates there flaws…
like tom said , a hard edge will release water , so when you go into a turn , water will squirt off one rail helping to initiate the turn,(compensating for delayed fin reaction)…
outline curve plays a roll here as well , a little more outline curve will also help the board respond a little quicker,(another wild guess would conclude the board you didnt like the fins in had a generic clean outline?)
and like tom i concluded you like to use the back foot through turns…
a fuller fin suits guys who like to bury the back foot ,they enjoy the hold /bite/and hook the fins give…
surfers who like to power up the back foot through turns, really hate boards with to much tail rocker…coz when they weight up the curved part of the rocker it slows down , leaving you motionless after your turn if youve lingered on the back foot to long…
but because you had a fin with more toe you have to stay weighted into the turn a little longer to get the response…
it basically came down to power of deduction , i knew what type of board those fins worked well in ,plus what they didnt work well in , thats why i asked if it wasnt like what i decribed , then how was it set up …i saw a potential opportunity to learn something…
so after all that , plus reading between the lines a little , if you want to keep using those fins and get some real squirt out of turns ,run a flater tail rocker with real hard edges almost up to half way ,normally a little slipperey but the fuller fins will compensate and give the bite and hold you want…make sure you curve the outline a little especially in the tail ,thats to compensate for the flater rocker…
ok im not tom ,so the flow with words isnt quite the same ,but in amongst the seeming collection of random comments will be the information you need …
tom while your close by i wanted to start a subject up on the vectored drag experienced by thrusters,how it relates to toe ,camber,concaved foils,fin size,cant…
i think i know the one basic thing that creates all the drag on thruster set ups…the work i did with concaved foils really cleared things up for me…
ive run out of time now …i think ill start another thread on it coz we lost the last one to roy…hopefully his speed surfing thread will keep him sidetracked for a while…
anyway tom id really appreciate your feed back when i post the theory…
im hoping youve already figured it , but if you havent …its one of those things where you say “of coarse , why didnt i think of that…” ill have to some drawings to make it super clear…
ok im out till next time…
regards
BERT
Thanks for the vote of confidence. But, I’m sorting through all this stuff along with the rest of you; just trying to figure out how to make a better product. The harder I look at it. The more I realize that we can optimize fins for specific sets of circumbstances. But, that can paint you into a corner and unless you have another setup for every set of conditions you might encounter. You could be left hanging. General purpose is not always a bad thing. Especially, when it comes to people who are not experts in what makes their board work and what makes it a dog.
Bert, I may be confused a little here, but I did GET TO SURF TODAY! During the session, I was thinking a lot about this thread and it inspired a particular thought regarding ugly and beautiful boards.
Magic Boards…
It appears that the potential to make a magic short thruster lies in synergizing the following three elements:
a. Fin Setup, particularly toe-in
b. Tail Rocker
c. Rail hardness/softness (to a lesser degree?)
If everything is dialed in just right, viola, you get magic.
Wish there was a way to standardize the whole mess without having to build and experiment so much.
Not sure what you meant by turn lag using more toe…but Ill wait for your future post.
So, in a nutshell…more toe, less tail rocker, you get more fin based turning thats better suited for tail surfers. Less toe, more tail rocker, you get more rail based turning for back+front leg surfers. Right?
Wondering now what classifies as low, medium and high toe in?
My assumption is that
a. high toe-in are fins pointed at the board’s tip
b. medium is offset outwards 1-3 inches (what I normally use) and
c. low not quite parallel to the stringer.
TD, yeah I like Dean M’s surfing a lot…saw some of his surfing and I too was wondering if Curren was back!
Regards,
Dave
meecrafty!!!
synergizing the following elements will give the magic board…
1 overall rocker nose and tail…
2 outline curve…
3 rail to rail contours…
4 rail thickness…
5 rail profile…
6 overall nose to tail thickness distribution…
7 fin size…
8 fin toe…
9 fin cant…
10 fin foil ( camber,chord,rake,etc)…
11 flex/stiffness…
12 weight…
13 an understanding of what different resins, foams, fabrics,and sandwich materials will do to the performance characteristics of all of the above…
notice the percentage fins have in the overall package…
thats the biggest reason im so fussy about my fin set ups and customise every board with a corresponding set of fins…
this comment wont have any relevance to most of you , but to the people that know me and the surfers who compete on my boards …
most of the magic is in the fins, but its still a part of the overall package…
more toe is only safe when your foil thickens up …more toe and a foil that is to thin gets ugly again,
i dont recomend more toe for a small wave thruster , i was responding to tubedog’s comment about trying a board with fcs that had a fuller foil and more toe and what it would do to different boards…
meecrafty!! another comment addressed to you again…regarding something you wrote on another post…
which has relevance here…
the best small wave high performance boards , are ones you dont have to shift your weight to go from trim to turning…
everything happens way quicker if you do everything from the same spot…
forget about rocker for turning(specifically tail rocker)…use your rocker for speed , your fins , rails, outline and bottom contours for turning, then you set a board so everything happens from the one spot…
theres no one magic formula…
the magic comes in being able to offset one facet of design against another and still keep it all working…
ive seen
rusty’s
merrick’s
maurice cole
nev hyman
rawson’s
and jim banks all with different rockers outlines etc (i could add another 10 shapers to that list)
all had magic coz of the blending of the various aspects …
i remember measuring some boards up saying “hm dono about this rocker” " but hang on this outline will offset that" “these rails are dodgy” " but hey the fin sets will compensate for that" “this bottom contour i dont really like " " but wait , the flex will make up for that”…
so at the end of it i could see it was another shapers way of coming up with a magic formula…
coz in the end there was a balance of all the ingredients , making a tasteful design…
my personal opinion if you want to learn magic…
you have no choice but to learn the extremes of every variable,once you understand the nature of every variable,then you still have to work through variable combinations,even after all that some never discover the magic,but at least can consistently produce something functional…
for each individual experimentation will still be the key,but swaylocks offers something solid to bounce theories off…so people wont have to go so far down the wrong path…it seems logical that a newer shaper will learn alot faster with access to the knowledge of all who have already been down the same road…
regards
BERT
the best small wave high performance boards , are ones you dont have to shift your weight to go from trim to turning…
everything happens way quicker if you do everything from the same spot…
forget about rocker for turning(specifically tail rocker)…use your rocker for speed , your fins , rails, outline and bottom contours for turning, then you set a board so everything happens from the one spot…
Bert, As usual, good advice. Although the underlined insight seems counter-intuitive, I’m starting to understand it. From my experience, curvier rockers have always responded better to me on turns. Also, when I did my mini-model water flow test using the clear acrylic board (posted a few months ago) the only way I could get the model board (thin sheet of acrylic about 2 ft long by 1 ft wide) to turn along an arc was to put some curve on the board/sheet. Without rocker the model board would just track, validating what I have always felt on flatter bottom boards.
However, I’ve been looking at the CI Flyer lately for small wave design inspiration (I just want to catch more waves when its small). In fact I have one with me today (borrowed a buds 6’6) and I’ve been taking measurements. Very deep concave (3/8") with a fairly standard SB rocker. The rail curve has more rocker and the stringer has much less rocker…like you say, use the rocker for speed (center/stringer rocker in this case) and everything else for turning (hope Im not putting words in your mouth). Does this jive with what youre saying? My plan is to duplicate the Flyer only using much less entry rocker (like the mongrel) for all around small surf…except it will be made with EPS/Epoxy. I’ll be posting another new post regarding deep concaves and hope you chime in. I “think” Im starting to understand design element synergy a bit better…thanks! Dave
your acrylic test panel would also have turned without rocker, but some outline curve instead…
also watch your nose entries , to flat and it gets rail grabby…
what you say about counter intuative is all to common…
and yes your right , you can increase rocker and you will get a tighter turn , but at the cost of speed ,an increase in rocker will be a decrease in speed…
if you use a flater tail and dial in all the other aspects for tighter turning , you then get fast and responsive,
regards
BERT
Why not make straight trailing edges like most airplane wings? asks Meecrafty.
From what I’ve ridden Ive noticed that curved fins are a softer more compromising ride, with the leading and trailing curves a standard dorsal fin allows for a range of inputs and returns a more forgiving response. The vertical chord measurements on a std fin slowly decrease so ist no surprise that curved fins give just the right feel that most people are comfortable with. I’ve ridden the Starfins and other vertical design fins and despite their technical attributes, they’re not something I’ve enjoyed. Each to their own huh.
Maybe if pilots drove planes like surfboards they would have curved wings too.
From what I’ve ridden Ive noticed that curved fins are a softer more compromising ride
This is all due to flex.
A curve fin’s tip will flex when loaded, effectively reducing the angle of attack of the fin tip.
This reduces the lift for a given angle of attack but also enhances the stall characteristics of the fin (spin out), both resulting in a softer and more forgiving feeling.
You can get similar results using a Thrailkill twin setup using more straight fins. The Thrailkill twin achieves the enhanced stall characteristics by the effect of one fin on the other. See biplane wing theory.
BTW airplane wings are twisted, just like a curved fin under load twists. Wing twist - Wikipedia
Hans, I love that you’ve brought in the Thrailkill Effect with the ‘double single’ setup.
Not everyone rides or likes or can engage fins with flex but by placing fins laterally inline like a Thrailkill or staggering dissimilar templates like a Twinzer, higher quality hydrodynamics are available with the basic Dorsal template.
Similarly the ‘wheel’ was invented and everyone hailed The Wheel, but didn’t envision the use of multiple wheels or in diffenvt configurations. Or future configs. BTs Twingles is/are a perfect example of taking something universally basic and standard, and then creating a new world of performance through creativity and experience.
Much like Twinzers, Bonzers, quads, Suoerchargers, et al… Bill didn’t need to reinvent the fin, just Invent the concept of interrelated flow between surf fins. And He did it a long time before everyone else did.
BT ! I’m a big fan of your work !
By posting as replies, you have buried your responses @ these links in this thread:
http://www.swaylocks.com/comment/529139#comment-529139
http://www.swaylocks.com/comment/529148#comment-529148
http://www.swaylocks.com/comment/529150#comment-529150
S R F D C O wrote:
Hans, I love that you’ve brought in the Thrailkill Effect with the ‘double single’ setup.
Not everyone rides or likes or can engage fins with flex but by placing fins laterally inline like a Thrailkill or staggering dissimilar templates like a Twinzer, higher quality hydrodynamics are available with the basic Dorsal template.
Similarly the ‘wheel’ was invented and everyone hailed The Wheel, but didn’t envision the use of multiple wheels or in diffenvt configurations. Or future configs. BTs Twingles is/are a perfect example of taking something universally basic and standard, and then creating a new world of performance through creativity and experience.
Much like Twinzers, Bonzers, quads, Suoerchargers, et al… Bill didn’t need to reinvent the fin, just Invent the concept of interrelated flow between surf fins. And He did it a long time before everyone else did.
BT ! I’m a big fan of your work !
As Hans pointed out in another thread, Mr. T’s twingle is creating a biplane wing effect.
The vertical gap between the biplane’s wings can affect performance. Supposedly, the theoretical optimum gap for low drag and good lift would occur at maximum separation of the biplane’s wings (vertical wing gap). But it looks like the more practical gap distance that has been used – and still provides good benefit – is the length of the wing chord.
Looks like the biplane effect might be in play for quad fin setups too. A staggered biplane wing that has been cut in half, placing one half of the biplane wing close to each rail of the surfboard. Seems like wing decalage would be toe-in and wing dihedral would be cant.
Thanks for that Bill. I’ll do a cut and paste next time for clarity, thanks.