Hi Dane,
On the last photo Gordof provided:
There’s at least 3 different cloths:
carbon on rails
carbon/aramid on middle
and a last one with hexagons… What is this last cloth ?
I there a tech’ reason to this patchwork of very technical materials or is it partly a design matter (wich is a good reason) ?
Thank you for taking some of your time to participate to the hot seat !
Z.
Youre right, it’s a huge factor. The firewire guy didn’t want to share huh? Honestly I cant say I fault him. Much of what we know is hard got, so it’s tough to turn around and give it away…especially when it’s your livelihood.
Say the Axiom I’m on at the moment, thats a 5’5 by 19 7/8, the tail width at 12 off the tail is slightly over 17"
Hey thanks for that. Yes we do all the glassing in house, actually ALL facets of production are done in house and on occasion we even fabricate blanks. I’m personally involved in shaping, laminating, setting fins, vacuum bagging, sanding and whatever else needs doing at the moment. I hand foil all glass ons also.
Most glass shops are not capable of doing our glasswork and if they are, it isn’t economically feasible.
As far as epoxy is concerned I use ProLink and Resin Resin Research exclusively. ProLink has been very helpful in accomodating my special requests.
Hey thanks,
That carbon is called Wasp 3k, it’s a carbon twill. The aramid hybrid cloth I’ll layer over the Convex feature on stepup boards because is it allows the feature to absorb greater heel impacts, it gives the Convex feature some added tension and it also adds extra drive weight to the board. Plus it looks cool which of course we all know is the most important thing.
dane
jeff alexander/gemni and ryan burch’s new thang
comments/observations?
Hi Dane -
In all honesty, I personally measured some boards at a shop (with owner’s permission) and came up with some tail widths on various models between 17" and 19". My question of the FW guy was were these designs specifically for east coast or consistent to the design wherever they are sold.
I’ve been building boards for a friend for awhile and we’ve been playing with the 17" tail width with good results. They work really good in mushy conditions but when it starts getting bigger and hollower… control obviously can become an issue at some point.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. I have enjoyed checking the designs you’re doing and really like the glass work! The exotic reinforcements are very cool and I’m liking the rail slots as well. Forming the carbon fabric in the slots must be a bit tricky? Is that vacuum bagged or hand lammed?
I think Jeff is a maverick, I think the Gemini was/is incredibly innovative and I think there’s been alot of infringement on Jeff’s innovation without permission, proper acknowledgement or even thanks.
I like Ryan’s boards, although I’ve never ridden one, we’ve all seen footage and it’s hard to argue with the results. I’ve met Ryan once and he seemed like a very decent person so I’m certain he’s good with Jeff. I appreciate Ryan’s use of alternative build methods. Personally I feel great boards are an amalgam of good shape AND material construction. Bob Simmons exemplified this relationship with his work, I think we should also for many reasons.
In general I’m a big fan of alternative craft, but there’s got to be evidence that the design not only works but WORKS WELL. I’ve seen and ridden quite a few esoteric designs where your just so stoked the damn thing didn’t crack in half and sink to the bottom you’re momentarily fooled into believing
“It Works!!” when the reality of the situation is more like ‘it doesn’t NOT work’.
Pride, ego and cost all seek to cloud the truth.
Board builders have got to be very honest with themselves and entirely pragmatic.
Dane- My question relates to design theory & with your alternative designs, I’m hoping you’ve got the answers I was looking for. Due to various physical limitations (back, knees, shoulders), my surfing is limited to the wind driven variety (kitesurfing & windsurfing) & the trend seems to be skewing towards wider, shorter boards. I’m 5’10 & 210#s and ride a 6’1" x 19-1/4" x 2-1/4" board in the mushy closeouts of the central coast of california. This board performs well in the spring when the winds are strong, but lacks drive in the summer/fall when winds lighten up. I think additional width would help keep the board “up & light” until I drop in & use the power of the wave, but I don’t want it to drive like a barge if too wide.
What I was wondering is - have you discovered any kind of ideal length to width ratio that is constant for any given conditions and can be applied to different length boards. What I mean is- can you adjust the dimensions from one board to another that would allow two different boards to perform roughly the same. As an example, If you start with the 6’1" x 19-1/4" and wanted to make another board that is, lets say 5’8" x ? and have it perform roughly equal. How would I figure that out? I understand that rocker & bottom profile will greatly affect how a board performs, but I would want to keep those two constant to minimize the variables.
Thanks for volunteering your valuable time to participate in the Hot Seat.
Age and injuries are great huh? In April 2000 I had my left leg amputated and surgically reattached so I know all about this phenomenon.
Truthfully speaking I know very little of kite and windsurfing. While planing is involved in both disciplines, you’re being pulled along, while a surfer is being pushed.
However, in the surfing world, I will tell you on standard shortboard outlines in average local conditions these are the culprits which I have found to be drive killers.
With regard to ideal sizing between different board models while I haven’t discovered an ideal ratio between length and width, I have found being mindful of volume to be very helpful.
Considering your last post, what range of concave-depth would you suggest for reef hollow waves ?
The chase for super-light board and over kicked tail is linked with the air-tricks oriented modern surf… I don’t remeber on who wrote this exemple but he got a young customer who came to his place asking for a board to doing air, whatever the design, it MUST allow him to do airs… or else it’s not a good board.
Well… Fashion is what it is…
Z.
With regard to firewire, while I don’t want to answer for them I will say that yes the 17"-19" widths absolutely lend themselves to slower, smaller, burgery, high tide waves. And I agree with you absolutely when the wave is hollower the ultra wide backends can get a bit tricky and I personally feel their are better designs for juicy waves. I just had an exchange with Kelly Slater that made me consider this again. While it looks like Kelly has been having a kick with some of the tomo shapes I’m very doubtfull we’ll see him stroke into any dredgers on one at Chopes. There is an important distinction however between a bigger wave and hollow wave. I’ve had GREAT success with a 5’5 Bullshark on a smooth (no offshore, no chop), lined up point break with a fuller almond shape face.
Thanks for the compliment. While I do hand laminate carbon on occasion, I prefer the results vacuum bagging where our Convex boards are concerned. Yes it is a little more tricky and the boards take at least twice as long as a normal lamination to complete.
On hollow waves with constant push, my concaves are very shallow and in this circumstance the only time I’ll incorporate mild V. I have success with this design for intermediate level travel surfers and those occassional good days we get in San Diego.
Interesting story, last year I was invited into the attic at the Surfing Heritage Foundation to dig through the gems and see what I could see. I spent a LONG time sifting through some of the most signifigant boards in surfing history with a special focus on North Shore designs. Pipe Masters, Triple Crowners and above them all a World Champion, straight from it’s last and final victory at Pipeline…over a decade later it waits in silent rediness for a Champion who will never return. This was a very moving experience. I would like to share with you what I saw and learned that day but it isn’t mine to give.
I will say after working with shapers around the world, I was very surprised at what the most elite, critical wave, performance boards in history had to share.
Dane you dog. You can’t share just a little? Hahahaha
Maybe some of us sneak in there one night with flashlights and see for ourselves. Or Mr Thrailkill gets us in the front door.
All the best
They all had ------ Secret Sause ;-)
vac bagging
ive done a fair but of vac bagging with making, laminating and pressing downhill longboard decks.
When im doing a top coat on them i used a peel ply and a bleeder cloth over that. (that being said it with 250-450 gsm dual bias weaves that are so far from 4 and 6 oz twill it aint funny) i know when i do that it takes some serious effort to remove the peel ply and bleeder cloth combo as they are well and truely impregnated with the excess resin that leaches through.
With surf board vac bagging, i have seen pics where peel ply is being pulled of with no bleeder cloth.
with out giving too much away, let me know if im on the right track.
My theory would be that the bleeder cloth may not be needed and it could be that just a layer of plasitic beween the peel ply and the bag could suffice as there wouldnt be as much excess resin to leech out of the much lighter twill.
Thanks for your time…
I have the feeling Dane is the force behind some other labels success with his programing and machining skills .
Lots of talent here .
Hey thanks Greg. Yes I have worked for many, many different people behind the scenes. Scanning, design and millwork are part of my service to shapers both large scale and exclusive. I’m very proud of this and can say without hesitation that everyone I’ve worked with has built a better board by evaluating parameters previously undefined by conventional method. I’m also proud that shapers around the world have trusted me to scan and safeguard their intellectual property. Some of these guys are no longer with us and a digital record of their work ensures the maximum fidelity of their designs. For those, their legacy continues stronger than ever. Important work needs to be recorded…and protected.
What bleeder/breather are you using?
im not sure, its the one the local fibreglass shop had in stock, its a loose weave, like a thin blanket.
