We are in final developments of a new epoxy resin system (went down this path cause of the lack of quality resin in Australia)
And I wanted to get feedback before we launch
We have 3 types in the 2 colours coming out. Ultra white and clear.
Rapid - pot life 10 min and fliptime 1hr
Pro - pot life 15min and flip time 2 Hr
Gloss - pot life 30 mins and flip time 3 1/2 hours
Gloss - can be used as a finish coat over the pro or as a slow resin from start to finish (designed for vac bagging)
Pro - I think this will ve the main resin with workable times and still quick flip times and and quick sanding times
Rapid - finboxes and outing carbon strips on straight.
Sizes
Gloss 3L &12 L packs
Pro 3L, 12lL & 30L packs
Rapid 750ml & 3L packs
My question is to the pros - rapid could you lam a board in 8-10mins? In testing we had 50% of the pros say yes other say it’s too quick? If we did a 12L pack of rapid would this be a too big pack?
Once we finalise the pack sizes and organize a proper shop for the website ( and a dangerous goods handler) we are ready to go!
Sounds great sanded quick is good! I have a few questions regarding keying in the laminate for a hotcoat , is it possible to make an epoxy that does not require sanding between lam and hotcoat for it to key properly. Im currently using some prep wipes which are supposed to do the same as sanding but dont trust them entirely… Also a easy to sand gloss coat would be awesome for finishing , i know some use additive F to help but something that is already formulated would be great? cheers
I mostly use Greg L resin with addF and some local brand no blush resin. I never have no stick problem on no prép cured resin even without addF, but with no blush. Blush is the enemy, recoat during green stage before blushing is the sécurity way, but with no blush resin no real risk. Blush act like finger print repeling resin. AddF is first an additive to avoid blush. Epoxy is a good glue so keying is only a plus to increase an even good Bond, but on a slightly key surface resin flow better and need less sanding after. One thing i learn from boat building: a fully cured blush free epoxy resin coat (hard coat) sand easily with appropriate sander. The most effective way to prep surface for recoat, because you think it blush or it was contaminate by other oily product, or because you want better flow is wet scourer.
Nocean - thanks mate, yes its a new tech not like the ones available in Australia. Been working with a chemist who has been in the epoxy game for the last 30 years. No blush, bonds well between layers.
Tech is a hybrid - Epoxy which as we all know how it cures and works. Acrylic which cures at a different rate, the product gets stronger and stronger. Each product has Acrylic which by it self makes it UV stable and super clear.
When we finish the website upgrade in the next few weeks we will show all the lab results pitching our stuff againt the other available in Australia so you can see the difference.
Hawaii is warm. Polyester lams can take only 5-7 minutes in production.
Most critical is the time it takes from the point of… thickening but workable… to unworkable geled. This zone is the safety net. It warns and then gives a small period of grace.
Polyester can be adjusted on the fly, to the daily temperature fluctuations and personalized for the speed of each laminator.
If a laminator could walk away in 5-6 minutes, with gel seconds later. it would be great for that guys production speed and economics. But if it doesn’t gel for 2-3 minutes later it could cause a big quality and economics problem.
If a laminator could do 15 boards a day but has to add or wait 3 extra minutes per side, per board. That will be 6 minutes per board and will add 1.5 hours to his work day. Or… he can just do 3 less boards per day to compensate. But at piece work pay scales, this will cost him dearly at the end of the month. As much as 60 boards not on his paycheck. At $20 (example) or more per board, that will be $1,200.00 or more of a pay drop. Not to mention the shop’s delivery schedule will take a severe hit and their economics will have to adjust depending on how much they net per board. If regular production is over 100 boards per week that will really hurt!
If the Resin’s character, allows a laminator to saturate faster, yet not get drain out or exess weight from the delayed gel time, he won’t be economically nicked. But depending on shop’s set up, he may not be able to wall rack the ungeled board and move the next shape onto the lam rack if the previous one is going to dripping on the board below it on the wall rack.
It is better for quality and economics if the gel time matches or can be adjusted to the laminators speed, rather then the other way around. Safely walking away as soon as possible, is all about the actual moment of gel.
Would be nice if gel could be individually adjusted with a few drops of a promoter of some sort. When I worked at Hobie’s, Bobby Patterson was the head laminator there. The resin drums were formulated to his speed and then he adjusted as the weather and board type dictated. He was so fast he still had to use tons of catalyst per board…!
in reality a production shop with a whole room full of glassing racks, the extra cure time shouldn’t matter too much, by the time you’ve filled 10 racks, your first one should be ready to flip or move to some drying racks so you can continue on.
That said, this is going to be gold for people (like me) who rely on small work areas, or as bill mentioned dont want to drip on other boards below in the drying racks. especially for epoxy hot coats.
Bill, I know you come from a polyester world and I can definately respect that, I did too. But there are so many advantages to newer epoxy tech that many of those former disadvantages you speak of are no longer applicable.
One of those is the thickening of the resin before set which we addressed 8 years ago with Kwik Kick. It enters a B stage after a few minutes that allows a laminator to move the resin but it no longer flows. When we were developing that resin I was hot coating an SUP. Along the stringer I had a couple volcanos. It had reached that B stage and I brushed over them which sealed them but what was really interesting was that the brush stroke never flowed out. For laminators this means no baby sitting which used to be endless with epoxy resins. It also means, as you and Pirate Agenda mentioned, no dripping on the board under in the ladder. It also means no drained rails on hot coats.
We also laminate differently than the regular polyester guys to increase the speed at which a laminate can be done. It’s not slower just different and it’s not faster just easier.
And then Additive F in the laminate eliminated blush and recoating/bonding issues and also made hot coats sand as easy as polyester. A few other brilliant ideas that came from other pros we’ve worked with solved all the real problems we initially had. Some quick examples, we use far less reain so the cost is actually less. No acetone eliminates another cost. Stiffer sqeegees move the resin more effectively and since the resin doesn’t drain you can just push it better. Also no masks nessesary since there’s 1/50th the vapor.
The epoxy resin today clearer, brighter, stronger, more eco friendly and safer for employees than polyesters.
I lived through the hell days to get to where it’s at today and it’s very different now. It does take a bit of time and dedication to get it right but its no harder or slower today and it does have some significant advantages in strength, cosmetics and versitility.
Acqua, truely sorry that you lost access to RR by opening a materials supply on the same street as Foamezy. With respect, I’ve done the side by sides and you should be careful about overselling products based on exageration.
Aloha Bill - Thanks for the feedback. Yep GL is right (though im still learning - just very lucky to have found a chemist that knows his stuff and together with the help of a few pros in feedback we feel that we have a good product), there is differences from the poly and epoxy and thickening times. What also the advantage is the less amount you need compared to poly and the lightness compared also.
The aim we have was to make a product that a poly guy would feel ok to use and maybe convert if they realise the advantages of epoxy (hard road as we haven’t had the “Clark Foam” situation down here) plus, try and get a quality surfboard epoxy in Australia. As GL knows that we have such a small market down here and its hard to get something like RR down here so making an Aussie made product that hopefully is better than whats here already is the starting point.
GL - Have you tried any of the hybrids (or maybe you have that in your mix already)? Loving the results so far! Do you mind me asking about the KK just to see how far we are off your products? potlife? flip times? sand times? optimisers? if you dont want to share - all good. I understand.
The aim we have was to make a product that a poly guy would feel ok to use and maybe convert if they realise the advantages of epoxy (hard road as we haven’t had the “Clark Foam” situation down here) plus, try and get a quality surfboard epoxy in Australia. As GL knows that we have such a small market down here and its hard to get something like RR down here so making an Aussie made product that hopefully is better than whats here already
**rather a bit of a delusional statement? whilst it is good to go your own way. — i think you may need to back up a statement like that
fluffing your so called opposition like that is not a good look**.
I tried hybrids a while ago but we went a different way. KK is a unique product in that allows fast production and very high strength. Certainly the best room temp strength of anything we’ve ever seen. Usually you get a certain resistance to fracturing at a certain modulus (stiffness) and raising modulus makes a brittle composite which leads to easy fracturing while lowering modulus (more elongation) makes a more flexible composite but the boards dent. Ideally you want to go very high on modulus for a stiffer composite to prevent decks from denting and keep the elongation so the laminate isn’t brittle. The higher modulus you can go without being brittle the better the results will be for boards. KK does this better than any other system I’ve seen.
We’ve spent more time and money on understanding this than anyone and nearly every resin out there, marine, aerospace, sports equipment, I don’t care who, they generally fall short of understanding this basic and extremely important aspect of an epoxy system. Every composite product is different with different parameters. Boats use different resin than boards. Carbon race boats use yet another. Aircraft wings another. The make up of the composite itself is also hugely impacted by the modulus of the resin system. You use a different resin on glass than you use on carbon and another for synthetic fabrics. Using the wrong modulus resin results in a finished product that is less than optimum. We have five different resin systems and two are multi modulus systems. I don’t know another company that sells a multi modulus system, not one. In fact most companies sell one resin with two hardeners and the two hardeners give different results.
This is actually a very long subject but KK was designed to be fast but to also optimize a fiberglass composite on low density foam.
As for optimizers we have a raft of them. When all optimizers are figured into all systems we offer 86 different resins with 11 different hardeners. It’s almost custom blending but demand is very broad.
