These are undoubtedly overbuilt for general surfing use. I can’t help but wonder if maybe they are ahead of the curve? Surftech basically relies on old windsurf technology. This looks similar but taken up a notch or two. I’m still sick of caved in decks, broken fins, etc. on most surfboards today.
thats pretty much it …
stack up the layers , put the ones with good compression properties where you need them , put the ones with good tensile strength where you need it , have impact resistence where you want it , then add stiffness and flex in the desired areas , then put the weakest weight saving component further away from harm …
a logical look at that information , would tell you that if old windsurfer tech is still ahead of current urethane contruction , then as things advance further which they already have , then urethane and polyester will be come even more useless than it is now …
good find that one john …
anyone wanting to step up should be studying what they see there …
whats twice the price for something that last 10 times longer and performs better as well , then has way higher resale value in proportion …
regards
BERT
Look close kids… this is where it’s going. This is where performance can be enhanced. Enhanced to take shape design where we can without concern for durability through shape (which is where we are presently). Freedom to use positive flex/return charateristics without having the damn thing fold up on us.
Sailboards, snowboards, kiteboards, wakeboards, etc, etc, etc, are all using advanced composites to enhance performance, while surfing, the grandaddy of all X-sports lags behind in the thick, polyester sanding dust of the mid 20th century.
Looking at what these sister sports have done in the name of progressive performance should fill us with shame for all we, as an industry, haven’t done. The historical innovators, Blake, Simmons, Hobie, Greenough, etc. Everyday we continue to lanquish in the past we insult the memory of their contributions.
Finally an excellent use for those Australian Pines that destroyed the mangroves in southern FL last year in the hurricanes. What a disaster they caused. Hundred year old Black Mangroves ripped up out of the ground and killed by the huge wide shallow roots systems of the Australian pines that seem to grow everywhere. Especially in mangroves. An invasive species if ever there was one. Just a bad combination; mangroves and Australian pine.
Good combination; Australian pines and sailboards. Wonder how their wood would work as a stringer material?
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Looking at what these sister sports have done in the name of progressive performance should fill us with shame for all we, as an industry, haven't done.
I figure the industry would only be filled with shame if their actions have somehow lessened the enjoyment we surfers get out surfing. So far, that hasn’t happened. Everyday is better than the last. Is sailboarding somehow more fun because of these progressions they’ve made? If not, who cares about their industrial progression other than those wanting to make money off of making and selling things? Nothing wrong with that of course: i’m just pointing out why the average surfer will never be concerned about the things you are Greg. They are too busy surfing and having fun.
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The historical innovators, Blake, Simmons, Hobie, Greenough, etc. Everyday we continue to lanquish in the past we insult the memory of their contributions.
Perhaps. And perhaps also: every second we spend worrying about the man-made commodity that is a surfboard instead of focusing on that which occurs naturally, the wave, we insult the memory of all the beautiful surfers who’ve come before us and contributed to the surfing arts.
Everyday innovations are made in surfboard shaping. Don’t be so quick to say “we” are languishing in the past just because the changes shapers out there choose to make don’t involve the particular materials that you and Bert have chosen. I’m really interested in what you guys are doing but I’m also interested in what other shapers are doing with traditional materials. Particularly since they are creating boards I can experience right here, right now, while you guys always seem to be talking about a future that never quite arrives. It’s too frustrating.
Good point,
Guess what all those indonesian sailboard manufacturing plants do now that windsufing has lost 90% of its popularity. They retooled and make epoxy surfboards. The pop outs everyone is all pissy about.
It’s also hard to be cutting edge when there’s no rr resin of additive f around???
Time to get back to sanding and lanquishing in the past.
the future has already past …
man has landed on the moon , and yet there are still undiscoved tribes in the amazon , untouched by the hand of progress …
not everyone can lay there hands on a piece of the future …
just like when that last amazonian indian is driving a beetle , do you think he will be in a position to take the controls of the enterprise …
current construction is 3rd world tech , that why they need to be built there …
real development combined with technological advancements , both in technique and machinery is the only thing left to keep the guys who are still playing with shape a chance to stay in business …
you got 2 choices if you want to keep the art of board building profitable …
either go to china , or advance the industry and get a technology advantage …
chinas economy will overheat , then when a chinese grommet commands 20 bucks an hour ??
whos left at home ? those who didnt go to china , but got smart …
now when i see retro as a marketing tool , somehow that sends out a signal that were languishing in the past …
retro style , retro looks , retro performance …
why are we looking to the past ?..
coz the clock has stopped …
im just glad my watch has still been running , so at least i can tell others the time when they wake up …
slim , one day youll have a choice , it all takes time …
regards
BERT
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now when i see retro as a marketing tool , somehow that sends out a signal that were languishing in the past ...retro style , retro looks , retro performance …
why are we looking to the past ?..
coz the clock has stopped …
im just glad my watch has still been running , so at least i can tell others the time when they wake up …
Ah, but one of the attractions of surfing is that it is not run by the clock. Our lives are run by the sun, wind, swell and tides - not the calendar or clock. Perhaps some of the popularity of “retro” is that it speaks of a simpler time when the culture wasn’t so materialistic and ‘driven’ and when people could be more free. Clearly the fact the “retro” boards are purchased with resin tints and airbrushes should show everyone that surfers are once again attracted to the surfboard as art and not (just) science.
Or perhaps surfers have given up the concept of past and future and realized that it can all exist at the same time, that surfing has become, in effect, timeless.
Stop the clock? Sounds great to me!
(but I still want one of Bert’s boards!)
Better equipment = more fun. The sister sports are progressing out of desire for MORE FUN. Technology is providing that.
Every surfboard builder before 1970 was known for his technology as well as shape. Since then, shape alone has ruled. It’s a given that standard technology WAS far ahead of other products at that time. Today that technology is, as Bert put it, third world. Proof is in the stacks and stacks of broken and damaged boards. Barbados Pro… 27 boards broken in one weekend! This is adaquate technology? Not in my mind … and I’ll give just a mention here as to how shape could progress given structural technoloy improvements.
As to shapes progressing everyday… yea, right. Let’s use 1981 as a marker in time. Lets compare the last 24 years with the 24 years preceding '81. From 1957 to 1981 we went from heavy wooden long boards to balsa/fiberglass, to foam and fiberlass, to noseriders, to shortboards, to the mini gun, to down railers, to progressive single fins, to twin fins and then the three fin. We went for 100 lb 12 ft. logs to 8 lb., 6 ft. high performance surfboards. That’s progression!
In the 24 years since the only significant advancment has been in shape, the most significant of that, concave. Other than that one advance the only progression since Simon’s three is some subtle refinement. What a joke!!! Pathetic!
Why is retro popular… because there’s NOTHING NEW!! Today we have to go back to before '81 when there WAS progression. Back to when creativity was rewarded, not bad mouthed.
Look around… they ain’t racing King Richards car at Daytona anymore… guess why. That car, as advanced as it was in 1970, couldn’t qualify at the Saturday night race at Po Dunk raceway today. And does anyone here think that that car would be more FUN to drive than Dale Jr.'s car?
Try telling the kid that just spent $600 on a brand new CI that broke the first week he got it (with no guarratee… sorry dude… your outta luck) how much FUN our third world technology is. If I broke my sailboard, snowboard, kiteboard or wakeboard the first week I’d get a new one. That is IF I could break one.
Your right, it’s all about FUN. If I’m going to spend my time and energy out there I want to have the most fun I can have. That’s why I’ve been riding advanced technology for 25 years. Think about it, I can make and ride anything I want. Why the hell do you think I’ve put so much effort into better technology? Why has Bert? For the money? I could have gone the way Rusty or Al went, or the way Randy French went, and made wayyyy more money. But better boards are more FUN. Your right… that is what it’s all about.
By the way, I love the debate
Anybody else remeber that back in the 70’s or so there was a theory that pretty soon every possible melody in the western musical scale would have been composed? The idea was, we better get used to rehashing old tunes because we were about to run out of anything new.
But…I hear new music almost every day. edit: and I’m not talking about ‘sampling’.
Some allow that new music is possible, but comes from technology like electronica. And other new music comes from using alternate scales (ever try to reproduse Japanese Koto music on a piano? Not possible.).
People who say that every shape has already been considered are only thinking about the standard set.
But there are, of course, three sources of new melodies: technology, foreign influence, and imagination. This applies to surfboards just as it applies to music, where I believe the foreign influence is other sports/other industries (aerospace, for example).
The most dynamic innovations will, of course, come from people willing to bring ideas from all three sources at once. Sure, innovative & imaginative shapers will continue to refine and even create from existing materials. Others will use technology & foreign influences to reproduce old designs in new ways. Right now, with few exceptions, surfboard evolution falls into either one or the other camp.
But the innovators working through both camps & from all 3 sources are the ones I’m interested in learning from…
Benny makes my point beautifully. Where would music be without technology. It is the main driving force that ALLOWS for creativity. Surfing has been, for nearly 50 years, at a technological stand still. Technology will allow us to move forward, produce better product that is more fun to ride and allows for more creativity in the water.
This thread has the wrong name.
Why else would we surf, or be here talking about how to make boards better?
Because it’s more fun than anything else. Individual, challenging, fun.
And the more variation (instraments) we have to use the more complex and challenging that creativity can be. Talk about MORE FUN.
In surfing many times the word challenge and fun can be interchangable. What could be be more fun than second reef pipe… what could be more challenging. Well how about attacking it with a new line, or on new equipment that allows a new line that YOU created. That’s challenge from soup to nuts. That’s FUN.
Producing surfboards has become so mundane that the challenge has all but left the arena. How many surfboard factories are filled with 50 year old men struggling to complete yet another boring day? Back to the past we go to dredge up another decades old idea and see if we can make it work… yet again. Is this challenge? Is this fun? Is this the best we can come up with?
What’s it like going to work everyday with no challenge? Going in, doing the same thing you’ve been doing for 30 years. Being a cog. Is this fun? Challenging? Been there guys… it SUCKS! There’s a better way.
How many materials go into the standard surfboard? Three, urethane foam, fiberglass and polyester resin. How many materials are there available with a simple change in resins? Hundreds. And thousands of combinations of those hundreds. Read this site and you begin to get a picture of what the future looks like… of what the challenge will be. Free exchange of individual ideas giving a glimpse of direction.
What’s it like working on challenge everyday. Making a small step that leads to a large contribution. That’s FUN! On this site, talk is common of the contributions of the greats… the Simmons’, the Hobies’, the Blakes’, the Greenoughs’ etc. What drove them? What made them acheive greatness? That answers simple … challenge. And how do we honor those contributions? Do we stay where they’ve led us or do we honor these great contributors by taking on that same challenge and becoming a part of it. That’s where the FUN lies.
We all surf for the same reasons. Challenge, individual expression and FUN. Increasing the level of the first two adds to the richness of the third.
Do you measure success by money earned? If you are doing what you love and get excited about it, act on it and work hard, the success naturally comes along. I think you’re way off base thinking all those in the surfing industry who made lots of money did it for that reason or somehow sold out and hinder innovation. Thank God for Randy French, because you would not be selling epoxy like you do. He is probably the most influential person getting epoxy into the mainstream of surfing and windsurfing.
regarding broken boards during surfing meets. single 4oz top and bottom usually does that. btw, king richard has two cars in the nextel cup series. except for the frame, if not crashed, those cars are totally refurbished after each race to include a $50K engine. That price for prep to race again could buy every citizen of barbados a new board. So to be competitive the surfers use super light disposable boards. big deal. to prove your point you need to sponsor a winning surfer with an indestructible
board of yours.
When the board is developed with those superior characteristics you aim for, I am sure it will sell like hotcakes. The consumer drives the industry. There have been at least 2 manufacturers of multiple cored, variable flex characteristic surfboards developed and built in Hawaii. Lots of interest at first by surfers, but in the >half decade since the consensus is they are not living up to expectations. Consumer driven, not some old school industry conspiracy to hold back technology.
The funny thing is maybe the xtreme sports you mention greatly benefit from composite fabrication, but the most extreme surfer in the world rides a 6’, 20 plus lb, balsa/fiberglass board made by his old shool shaper and father. go figure
Yes, he does. And since you brought him up, let’s use THAT GUY as an example of what I’m talking about.
Challenge? I’d say so… in spades.
Creativity… again in spades
Individual … in spades
Advanced composites… for the particular use… yes.
Fun… absolutely. You happened to pick out the one guy who’s probably having more fun than any of us. No one here would argue that he’s doing it his way and doing it THE BEST of anyone on the planet. And no one would question his personal individuality or creativity.
Thank you for making my point for me!
As for promotion of the product, just because your the biggest doesn’t mean your the best. No one thinks Mickey D’s makes the worlds best burger. No one thinks GM makes the best car.
It’s easy in this day and age of big time ad campaigns and over the top athlete sponsorships to make a superior product and not see market success. Today’s consumer market is dominated by products that reek of mediocrity and have double digit growth estimates. The old adage “build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door,” just isn’t true anymore. It’s more like build a better ad campaign…
And the fact is that the biggest surfboard producer in the world IS building composite sandwich epoxy boards and got that way through much more through marketing and less through superior product.
To create superiority one must think outside the box, the way Randy has. The way Laird has.
The mid 20th century production materials and techniques are NOT the future. Nearly everyone knows this. What’s your opinion of where its going? I certainly have expressed mine.
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Where would music be without technology. It is the main driving force that ALLOWS for creativity.
I chose to respond to Greg’s post so I could easily quote the above two lines, but I’m addressing various others as well, so bear with me here.
The MONSTER difference between music and surfing is that surfing is defined in one respect by limited resources…waves. With music anybody can find and instrument (or not) and learn and create and get whatever he or she can get out of it in direct relation to aptitude and the amount of time spent practicing. This opportunity doesn’t exist in surfing. The various conditions (wind, swell size, etc.) make surfing subject to a very limited time window. Also in music one can improve in direct relation to time spent at the activity (this being playing music right?) and there is very nearly no age limit…at age 40/50/60/70 there will be no preordained deterioration of the physical skills necessary to play an instrument.
I suspect that because of this surfing bottleneck of sorts, this hourglass-style binding of opportunity to surf, that technology can outstrip its usefulness in surfing in general. The old resin and material technology works - nobody disputes that. I think everybody pretty much agrees that material prices and environmental restrictions look to force a move into new resin technologies although there may well be other great benefits in their use.
The modern potato chip board may allow contemporary mutant surfers to sharpen the cutting edge of performance surfing on world class waves, but they aren’t going to be much fun at the local beach…compared to that rather fat, floaty, longer (6’6"?) board with the resin swirl glass job.
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Technology will allow us to move forward, produce better product that is more fun to ride and allows for more creativity in the water.
Agreed, of course…the time is long past for modern people to do otherwise. I just got back from a little vacation, and I’m tanned, rested, and ready for whatever. I’m not running on some horrible bum trip here, but I have to point out that a $3000 cutting edge semi-molded custom X-33 material hand-tuned surfboard is 99% of the time still going to be paddled out at the same place as the older polyurethane standard. While it may be a mental buzz for the owner (hugely important in surfing too, right?) it might be hard to quantify/justify/support the new manufacturing set-up and potential price structure based on incremental performance improvement. That may make it hard to support the business (W.A.V.E Hollow, performance soft boards, etc.). This isn’t an argument against technology, just an observation as to why there has been resistance.
And your point is well taken. The boards I’ve been building for over 20 years are better at performance AND durability AND aren’t any more expensive than standard polyester boards. And yet because of general surfboard factory business structure they are still not commonly available in most areas although there are areas where they have a very strong presence.
We have been talking here about cutting edge and there is still the overwhelming percentage of surfers who are recreational. Don’t think for a minute that better technology doesn’t transfer down the food chain to something better for everyone. I can certainly, once again, use automobiles as a comparison. I’m sure no one will argue that auto racing is one of the primary places technology is conceptualized, tested and proven. And it is structured to do this. Unfortunately competitive surfing is more purely promotional and doesn’t do as much to enhance everyday equipment. Yet it still contributes.
The spector of quadruple digit board prices in the near future are not a part of this discussion at all. In fact the polyester chemical prices are escalating faster than epoxy. I would think that having more than one technology might actually insulate that threat.
And if there is a $3000 ultimate board developed I personally think it would and should be offered to the marketplace. I don’t see the harm in that.
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We have been talking here about cutting edge and there is still the overwhelming percentage of surfers who are recreational. Don’t think for a minute that better technology doesn’t transfer down the food chain to something better for everyone
Understood and agreed. I started pre-leash in Ventura, heh heh, probably why I chose to cite W.A.V.E Hollow boards and soft boards - two technologies which while not perfect or indestructable were certainly superior in the durability department should one lose a board on the rocks at California Street. They just made sense in my context (which apparently still functions in some subliminal morass despite the accessory tech which has made the need moot). But it is still a disappointment to me that neither direction was developed to anything near their full capability, and I believe that was due to general lack of acceptance…the same thing you faced until recently with epoxy.
Certainly the cutting edge must be pursued, and if somebody can come up with something worth $3000 then absolutely it should be available to those who want it. As for your auto racing analogy vis a vis pro surfing - I suspect really high tech surfboard manufacturing would be more dependent on pro surfing spectacles than at any other time in surfing just to maintain monetary support for manufacturing and R&D. I don’t even have a problem with that as long as it doesn’t dumb “us” down any more than we already have been.
How about this? “…Thucydides’ The Athenian General - a narrative which would give you chills. It was written four hundred years before Christ and it talks about how human nature is always the enemy of anything superior.” -Bob Dylan, Chronicles
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As for promotion of the product, just because your the biggest doesn’t mean your the best. No one thinks Mickey D’s makes the worlds best burger. No one thinks GM makes the best car.
On the way back from the north shore this morning I saw a monte carlo rental with soft racks and longboards on top at the Mickey D’s drive through in Haleiwa. Might not be the best, but as far as transportation to the beach and a protien, carbohydrate, fat source for a reasonable price…can’t beat it. Not sure what kind of boards they were riding, but the passanger had either some serious stoke on his face or chocolate milk shake spillage. May have had a drinking problem? Again the consumer drives the market. I guess everyone doesn’t need “the best”. Also the other problem is if you were to get 1000 board order today can you fill it? That’s the problem. You can make the best board in the world. But if you can only make 1 board per week, you produce 52 boards per year. So be careful for what you wish for. As far as where it is going. Hard to say. My wood lam epoxy is $200 less than a surftech which is a plus for me, but there is a nice epoxy import regular longboard with a nice paint job for $300 less than mine. All three nice boards, three different prices. A surfer with only $450 and needs a board real bad will buy the import. A guy that wants a custom comes to me and the surftech fan buys a surftech and brings itto me for the ding repair. A dude from Maui calls me up last year to see if I can make him a “Bert Burger technique board” as listed on swaylocks. At that time I had no clue what he was talking about. But the conversation still came down to “how much”. He tried builders on Maui (the composite, epoxy mecca of Hawaii) with no luck. So that told me it wasn’t easy or cheap to do. I am not that sure that the biggest and best in marketing board makers aren’t making the best for consumers at that given price right now. Can I get a better car made than a chevy? Yup. Can I buy a leaner cut of beef and make my own more nutritional burger? sure can. But can I supply the car and burgers of that quality for the masses?? sure can’t, only set up for 200 units per year. so all you experts out there we need details, trade secrets, the real skinny. Quit throwing us crumbs and give up the main course. Oh…now you see where the future lays? Poker players, poker faces and the cards held so close to our chest. The future?? the surf report is only 5-7 days in advance. That’s all the future I need in the business of having “fun”. ps a 6’ jaws replica signed by the man brought over $17k at auction. I saw two more in CDR rack last week. About 6 balsa longboard plugs and some fancy clark dye foam stringered longboards for a famous old school shaper. Foam models starting at $1800 and the balsas at $3000. All shaped by machine, glassed in the same factory with a supplied laminate from the designer shaper. Where’s all the epoxy and eps and carbon fiber and wood and divinycell??? That would be in my place 5 miles down the road. If I am the future, be very scared!!!