Ordering a Magic Board

Hey Guys, I am new to this Forum, have looked around a litle bit and found amazing how much knowledge I found here! So, before anything, congratulations to you all!

I dont know if my question is valid, because I will ask something from a customer/surfer view, and not a shaper view. So, if this is an unapropriate question, I apologize from now on. But anyway, here it goes!

I am now about to order a new surfboard. As I have always done with shapers for the past 10 years, I just give my height and weight, say that for ex: I want a 6’1" for small waves and then that is it.

But this time I wanted someting more, so I started looking for shaping info on the net and found a lot of concepts that fascinating to me. Knowing that a WP below center is better for back foot surfers, or that depending on the rocker curve the board gets more difficult to paddle into the wave, but gets more maneuverable, etc…

The thing is: Shouldn’t the shapers that I have been ordering surfboards, asked questions about my surfing style? Or should I get them infos about my surfing to feed them with info, so that they can get the magic stick I want?

So, what I want to know is: What kind of information should I give to my shaper?

I will order it from www.wetworks.com.br with Claudio Heneck, the guy who shapes for Neco Padaratz, Peterson Rosa and many other brazilians on Tour.

Thanks very much to you all! And sorry about my english (I’m brazilian)

aloha!

Quote:
Hey Guys, I am new to this Forum, have looked around a litle bit and found amazing how much knowledge I found here! So, before anything, congratulations to you all!

Welcome Alelordelo

I dont know if my question is valid, because I will ask something from a customer/surfer view, and not a shaper view. So, if this is an unapropriate question, I apologize from now on. But anyway, here it goes!

All questions are appropriate

I am now about to order a new surfboard. As I have always done with shapers for the past 10 years, I just give my height and weight, say that for ex: I want a 6’1" for small waves and then that is it.

But this time I wanted someting more, so I started looking for shaping info on the net and found a lot of concepts that fascinating to me.

Fantastic! You are on your way to a magic board. Knowledge is everything, then comes skill to arrive at what you know to be right.

Knowing that a WP below center is better for back foot surfers, or that depending on the rocker curve the board gets more difficult to paddle into the wave, but gets more maneuverable, etc…

Be careful what you begin to believe based on what you read. You can find almost every theory written as fact. Like wide points back are better for rear foot surfers. There are very few hard and fast rules though many are presented that way to create believers and devotees mostly to improve the image of the supposed masters, presenting the theories as facts. Surfboards, Surfing and Board Construction is very, very subjective. Don’t grasp onto any beliefs until you have personally ammased emperical data based on actual experience riding and testing the belief. Even then, know that you might be feeling something that you think is caused by a certain highly visible design factor like the shape of the tail when in realality, the cause is a very hard to see characteristic in the proportions of the bottom curve.

The thing is: Shouldn’t the shapers that I have been ordering surfboards, asked questions about my surfing style?

Absolutely!! This would seem to be just good business sense, wouldn’t it. But remember… Surfboard making is a “Glory Business”. Therefore, most who are drawn into it don’t do it to please the customer. They do it to please themselves. Because of this, the value of a customer is different to them. Their primary need for customers is to establish that they are popular. The more popular they are, the more COOL they are. The more cool and popular they are the more Glory that gets heeped on them and the better they feel about themselves.

While in normal… nonglory businesses… the customer is the portal to financial success and stability. Therefore, everything is focused on the customers happiness and pleasure. The surfboard and the customers buying experience is the product being sold. The purpose is to make the customer very, very happy at all costs. It is not to make the business more Cool. Being popular and cool, will be a natural result of many happy customers but it must not be the goal or driving force behind being a shaper or surfboard maker. Sadly, this is rarely the case. As the social value in being the cool shaper dude, is so powerful that it easily overrides and smothers the customers need and desire to have that experience first.

Oddly, in an immature surfing society, sometimes getting a board brand that is considered popular and cool often transcends the value of actually getting a board that has been designed specifically for you and your waves and actually works well.

Most people don’t really know how good a good board is because the best board they every had or tried was simply the best board THEY every experienced. Not the best one they could have experienced. There may be many boards better than that one but if you never get to feel one of them, you may think you are riding the best board you could ever get. When in reality, you are just riding the best board you have bummped into so far. Sometimes this can be a fantastic board. But you can only know that for sure if you have been in a quality relationship with a great shaper/designer who will get you there or beyond that after exhausting all other possibilities.

I good shaper should be able to take you rapidly past mediocre boards that seem great due to your lack of experience, and into the realm of the best designs in the world suited to you and your waves. But as you have indicated, very few shapers take the time to achieve this for their customers. But in support of shapers everywhere, there aren’t really all that many surfers who really understand this either. Nor want to go to the efforts it takes on their part to get a Magic Board. Most just want to buy a socially approved famous model from a famous shaper (even though he probably didn’t even shape it) and have it work Magically for them! Of course, that is the lazy man’s solution to a much more involved process. One sadly, that few want to indulge in no matter how great the boards produced might be.

You are clearly one of those few surfers who are graduating out of “board design middle school” and are now ready to go on to board design university. Hence your great question!

Or should I get them infos about my surfing to feed them with info, so that they can get the magic stick I want?

If they aren’t asking you for it or have a system in place to draw that data out of you, they probably don’t care much about having it. If they don’t care about having that data, it is because they don’t think they need it and therefore wouldn’t know what to do with it if they had that data. Besides, it would only mean more work for them and remember… they aren’t looking for work, they are looking for Glory!

So, what I want to know is: What kind of information should I give to my shaper?

He should want all the measurements off of every board you have ridden recently and he should want to know all the details about how each of those boards worked for you. That way he could figure out all the features in the boards that created positive experiences and results for you and all the ones that were negatives. Then when he makes your new board, he can fill it with positives and leave out all the negatives… PRESTO!!! You will have a magic board. And if you continue going to that shaper and he is truely skillful enough, it will continue to get better with every board you get.

I will order it from www.wetworks.com.br with Claudio Heneck, the guy who shapes for Neco Padaratz, Peterson Rosa and many other brazilians on Tour.

I do not know this shaper and nothing I have said above should be construed by anyone as me intending those comments to apply to him.

That said, it takes a lot of time to measure customers boards and talk to them about how and where they surf. So you need to find a very skillful shaper who will take the time to work with you on a very personal level and you need to be sincere and devoted in return.

The board I just shaped for a customer was a 9’6" Longboard. Over several weeks he brought me 5 boards to measure and disect. Then we talked about what his experiences were with each one and then we distilled this data down into a written order that specifically detailed each of the measurements he needed based on all these boards and their performance characteristics.

Then we shaped his new board over 2 days, making sure to hit precisely on each measurement. He was there with me the whole time watching over the whole process and the outcome to his satisfaction. That is how it is done and should be done if you are paying for a CUSTOM surfboard. Of course, this kind of service is not the cheapest. Nor does the most expensive shaper guarantee you that you are going to get that kind of service or a magic board.

Thanks very much to you all! And sorry about my english (I’m brazilian)

Your welcome and your English was quite good!

aloha!

i just ordered i new board off a local shaper that i know quite well. we were discussing a few different designs to incoperate into the board but the shaper wasent sure if it was exactly what i wanted. so we went surfing together for about 3/4 days he really got to understand my stlye.

we then went back to the shaping bay and tweaked a few things the board is know ready i just have to pick it up.

other shapers that i have had make me boards just looked at me and said “i’ll ring you when its ready” and thoose boards have all turned out to be completly wrong for me.

but it goes to show that if you go in and share some ideas and get the shaper to learn what sort of dimensions will suite your style you surfing will benifit quite large.ly

Right! What Bill said.

(I was gonna say similar things but Bill’s post was perfect)

I particularly liked this one:

Then when he makes your new board, he can fill it with positives and leave out all the negatives… PRESTO!!! You will have a magic board.

Thats it in a nutshell. Im no pro, but Ive made basically the same board style 8X over, tweaking the design AND construction (it takes a while when you include new construction) luckily Ive made a couple of real winners.

And ABSOLUTELY YES, style matters.

(Bill’s comments on Glory and Cool were spot on too…that was real refreshing to hear)

Good on Alelordelo for bringing up good questions which desperately need to asked and answered on a semi-regular basis. It seems as if the design approach is too ass-backwards around here and out in the field.

One comment on majic boards: yes its great to have one but just keep in mind two things:

  1. usually there’s a very small wave range (size and face shape) where a majic board becomes majical. Outside of that range, a majic board may just be real good, but not majical.

  2. depending on build and materials used, the majic may not last too long

(not difficult to achive #1; my focus lately has been on reducing/eliminating #2)

I’m not going to compare my work with that of Bill BARNFIELD, of course. Experience is everything and he obviously has much more than I will ever have. But I do agree with him. It’s not uncommon that I spend one or more hours with a future customer, trying to understand what he REALLY is after. Making a board for a friend, one you surf with on a regular basis, is easier than making a board for someone you didn’t know the minute before. You have to come to know the guy first, and to make sure that you are speaking the same language. We all use the same words but we often give them different meanings. “Fast but still loose” can be applied to anything from a 5’6" stubby to a 11’+ full gun and it won’t mean the same thing for two different people.

Also, many people won’t be able to tell you their actual surfing level: either it will be very optimistic (that’s usually the easier to find out if it’s true or not) or very “on the low side of it”, which is much harder to determine their true level. Remember, we’re talking about someone that you have never seen surfing. Anyway, both are difficult: it’s hard to suggest an egg to someone who tells you that he’s basically the next Kelly (even if you’re reasonably sure that he’s paddling underwater on his current 6’2" x 18" x 2") but the opposite ain’t easy either.

Shapers should listen and listen and listen again. But customers shouldn’t be afraid to be honest. There is no shame in trying to improve, far from it, but you have to know exactly where you start from.

Another thing that I believe is very important: artwork. Even if it’s not one of the features that scientifically make your board work or not, it has a definite psychological influence IMHO. You will always FEEL better on a board you like (aesthetically) and that translates into increased performance. Artwork doesn’t necessarily mean multi-colored swirls all over, it might as well be volan cloth and multi-stringers or just plain white. To each its own. That’s what it allways comes down to: never be afraid of being different.

Hey Alelordelo. Which part of Brazil are you from? I´m down in Rio and I could hook you up with my shaper who would definitely take the time to talk to you about all of the questions you have raised.

With Wetworks you´ll be paying a lot of money for what is considered to be one of the best names in the market but will you get the persoanl attention that a smaller less well known shaper will give you? Do you get to speak to Claudio Hennek personally before he shapes your board? I know he´s got a massive reputation so please don´t think that I´m being negative about him.

I know exactly how you feel. I used to just bring my old board to my shaper, tell him what I liked and disliked about it, and would wind up with something very similar. This worked fine for me until a got a board shaped by a new shaper. He asked me all these new and relevant questions that I had never really thought about and it opened all these doors. He shaped me a board that worked with how I surfed. I spent more time discussing the board than ever before. The board turned out to be the best one I have ever ordered, and changed the way I look at a surfboard.

If you do the research and ask the questions I am sure you to will find your magic board and maybe get something you never thought you would ride. Good Luck

P.S. Your English is much better than you give yourself credit for.

Jess

Hi Alelordelo (or whoever you are),

I’m from Floripa and I’d like to share a my experience a little (if I have one). First, I don’t think most of the well known shaper available in the Brazilian market have free time to check all their customers performing at some ordinary beachbreak (which we have a lot along our coastline). So, in my more than 25 years of life as a shaper I tried to develop a simple approach in order to minimize the shaping creation failure. In this sense, after explain my methodology, I ask my new customers some questions:

1-What was his last board (if possible, I scan all the board) and what were his impressions about it?

2-If you could surf like some pro, who would be him/her?

3-Have your friends compared you to some renowed surfer? (One thing is how you surf, another is how do you think you surf)

4-What kind of work have you been doing to improve your surfing skills? (Are you commited with your development?)

These few questions have saved me a lot of work. Before apply these questions to my customers, I started checking this formula with my team riders, and it worked very well.

Obviously, it facilitates the starting point of a whole process of trial and error. Sometimes, it takes at least three boards to reach a pattern of shape, in others the first is the “bingo” one.

Some customers, when they get the right shape, they stop and don’t want to change or try something different in their boards. Others are always searching for something new in order to give a new sense to their surfing.

Each shaper has his/her approach, phylosophy, beliefs, or whatever guide his work, and sometimes it simply doesn’t fit to a specific customer. When it happens (and it happens), it’s time to look for another shaper and start another partnership…

Good Luck!!

Hey Barnfield!

First of all, sorry for the late reply, but I have been busy with a business that I am starting up in Brazil.

Thanks very much for your time and patience in answering my question, it helped me a lot! Awesome your devotion for shaping, I can hear it in every word you write and inspired me to wise me knowledge on the subject!

I actually just rang my last shaper wich I have been ordering my last 5 surfboards, and he hasn’t got the measures archived. So I talked to another shaper in Brazil called Lelot, and he seams to be a guy who develops a relationship with the customer, ask a lot of questions on the style you surf, archive all the shapes files and discuss on a very personal level what needs to be improved or corrected on the next surfboard, based on the past surfboards. I will give him a try! : )

I liked when you wrote “Most people don’t really know how good a good board is because the best board they every had or tried was simply the best board THEY every experienced. Not the best one they could have experienced.” You are totally right, and I hope I am one my way for finding an magic one!

As soon as I get my surfboard I will post a feedback here.

all the best,

aloha!!!

Alexandre Lordelo

Aloha Alelordelo

I am glad I could help. And that you found a shaper that will work with you on a more quantative and personal level. Do learn to measure your own boards and keep track of your own data base of board measurments.

Maybe you know of my “Basiian Brother” Pepe Lopes who died in a hang gliding accident many years ago. I just had the pleasure of entertaining his wife, daughter and son here in Hawaii. His children were just babies the last time I saw them. It was great to see them all healthy and doing well. JP the son, is quite a good surfer now and at 16 looks exactly like his father did at the same age when I first met him.

It was an uncanny experience to surf together with him as it was like being in a time warp and… surfing with his father again 30 years ago.

Good luck on your new board and shaper.

There are two sides to every coin. I am here to present the ‘other’ side of the Magic Board coin.

Bill has presented the Magic Board from the perspective of a shaper who as by all accounts created much board magic. Bill’s perspective is one of careful research and refinement, great care taken in understanding the customer, and vast experience both in the water and in the shaping bay. One might call this the ‘Magic Board through the experienced custom shaper’ route… . . and it’s go to be a fair dinkum way to go.

All I want to do is put in a word for serendipity, happenstance and the offbeat when it comes to finding Magic Boards. In my experience Magic boards have often been beaten up old boards which just arrived in my life as if sent. . . . and which didn’t appeal AT FIRST.

Then there’s the ‘making your own board’ route . . . . a definite winner !

Cheers

rroy

Too true Roy,

Magic is where you find it.Some of the silliest looking boards ride great.

Try your friends boards and ride as many types of boards as you can get your hands on.

Keep track of the dimensions and make different boards work.

I make boards to learn about surfing and for the fun of creating some thing.

Nice to have a relationship with good shaper to learn from also, but their is nothing

like seeing for your self.

I try to make boards that work for me and I have fun.

Ian

Quote:
There are two sides to every coin. I am here to present the 'other' side of the Magic Board coin.

Bill has presented the Magic Board from the perspective of a shaper who as by all accounts created much board magic. Bill’s perspective is one of careful research and refinement, great care taken in understanding the customer, and vast experience both in the water and in the shaping bay. One might call this the ‘Magic Board through the experienced custom shaper’ route… . . and it’s go to be a fair dinkum way to go.

Aloha Roy

Thanks for the compliments.

All I want to do is put in a word for serendipity, happenstance and the offbeat when it comes to finding Magic Boards. In my experience Magic boards have often been beaten up old boards which just arrived in my life as if sent. . . . and which didn’t appeal AT FIRST.

Good point Roy. Serendipity is a powerful force. Sometimes it exposes the unimagined in a place were great success was hiding. But most often it is a result of mistakes that create useless outcomes that waste time, materials and money.

In the absence of great imaginations and design skills, serendipity can often be the only tool available that will “push the envelope”. In that situation, it is a crutch and is the lazy and unimaginative’s way of making something different by accident.

Still… no matter how brilliant one is or how original their thinking or how vast one’s data base of experience is … there can always be that odd, unimaginable combination of features, that will elude the best of ones ability to find them through rational means and where, in the end, it will only rear its head through the unpredictable providence of serendipity.

That’s what makes the pursuit of “magic” boards so elusive and rewarding at any level.

Then there’s the ‘making your own board’ route . . . . a definite winner !

Cheers

rroy

Hi Bill,

I was speaking from the point of view of a grommet trying different approaches to waveriding rather than just taking the easy route and accepting a ‘refinement’ of the currently accepted ASP design via a shaper of ‘custom’ surfboards… . . .

Shaping a board serendipitously is inefficient and lazy in my opinion, I agree with you there. . . personally I have never made a board by guesswork. . . and never will. . . .I was talking about the magic which comes through an unusual board which has been shaped intelligently but arrives unexpectedly. . . big difference !

Remember we are talking about Magic. . . . which I just happen to believe in, and which isn’t, in my opinion, just a surf industry marketing tool exclusive to the custom shaper. . . .

There’s another kind of magic which can be described as Divne Inspiration. . . IMO the best of all !!

Regards,

Roy

I fully agree Roy!

Magic boards do exist, no question about it. I don’t know if God really gives a rip about how surfboards work…but they always seem to come out better when I check in with him first!

Hi Bill!

I never had the chance to meet Pepe personally, but I have heard only nice things about him and I know he made many friends in hawaii and caused a positive impression on our brazilian culture, instead of many brazilians that go there now and are into fightings and stuff. Nice that you still keep contact with his family!

I have some friends in Hawaii now, Rodrigo Koxa and Daniks Fisher. They told me they surfed Jaws recently and it was huge! Don’t know if you have heard about them…

All the best

Alexandre Lordelo

Aloha Alelordelo

Pepe was a great ambassador for Brasil.

Don’t forget to let us know how that boards works when you get it in the water

Hey Bill!

I will surely let you guys know! Right now I am recoverying from a cirurgy that I’ve made last week, but in one month I beleive I will be back in water and will post my feedback here as soon as I get it.

all the best!

Alexandre Lordelo