paddle surfing equipment and design

General Discussion
1

Continuing in the theme of CarveNalu’s How To Safely Canoe Paddle Surf w/Pics. I thought that it might be good to have a parallel thread running more in focus with equipment and design.

The origional, deleted, thread had some great equipment design info. Someone showed pics of a homemade paddle and several board pics. Hopefully those people will repost here.

Hopefull this thread will blossum into a resource for both paddle and board design. So to start this off…

I believe that CarveNalu’s current boards of choice for knee paddling are the Mickey Muñoz 11’ Ultra Glide and the 12’ Super Glide.

11’x17 1/8"(n)x25"(c)x15 3/8"(t)x3 3/4"

12’x17 3/4"(n)x26 1/4"(c)x16 1/4"(t)x4 1/4

My current plan is to build a 12’x28"x5" tandem/standup paddle board. I’m 6’2" 200#. What I don’t know is what rocker, rail shape and bottom contours should be.

Hopeful we can get some rocker photos…

thanks in advance, and paddle safely

2

Pretty simple really…

More rocker for surfing the waves.

More flat for better paddling.

Gotta know what kind of waves you’re riding to really matter, and exactly what size.

Since you can’t, you can’t bother with exact rocker dimensions.

3

every thing goes

they all work

DIFFERENTLY

Book : Canoes of Polynesia

Chronicled the paddles from many ,if most?

island groups in poly and mele nesiaspecialized paddles for specific uses and areas of the reef structures surrounding each island

THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT

the paddle …

less is more

in the surfing venue recovery and wind resistance are

in my mind ,the primary consideration.

blade two spans area is the same as paddling

by hand plus the area of the web

once we evolve or have enough $ for the surgery

smaller than two spans

is like shifting your shimano down to go up a slope

pointy ends are for sneaking up on fish

heavy blades are for vertical floating

rockered baldes is for body surfing

the t-top is cool for blade dipping and dragging control

but a real imposition for when you wanna choke up and

kneel or sit or squat or jaque stand or twiddle trot.

without the t- top cutting back the length ain no beeg ting

…ambrose…

just a few thoughts

on somthing that has interested

me.

4

Here’s some interesting information I copied/pasted from this site : http://www.gillespiepaddles.com/

Selecting a Paddle:

A few basic considerations are in order as you try to find the right paddle for yourself.

One thing I really want to emphasize about paddle designs is this: frankly, the design of a paddle blade is not the crucial factor! I make quite a few different designs, but it’s not like I really say, hey, this one here is just the cat’s meow for the best paddlers. There is no such thing. The crucial factor in what makes a blade work for you has much more to do with blade dynamics and shaft comfort. The newest thing is the Surge design blade (Zav, Wily Coyote…etc…). This is a very interesting blade. Especially to look at. But for outrigger paddlers, the actual shape of the blade is close to meaningless in it’s added value when paddling. It’s a funky blade. I like it. But it paddles no better than a PM shaped blade. It will probably feel more comfortable to fast cadence paddlers because of the reduced blade area – when compared to more standard size blades.

You should be seeking a blade that is easily embraced by the water. You don’t want sploshing going on all around the blade as it enters the water. You want a tight fit. And big clunky plastic or wood tips don’t enter smoothly. I’ve found that the moderate lip on the powerface is a nice way to get that blade smoothly into the water.

You also don’t want a blade that is monstrous, even if you are Hercules or Wonderwoman. Your size doesn’t really affect the size of your blade. You just want enough size so that the blade plants itself, and you can vault by it. It doesn’t take a lot of blade to do that. I find that in most situations, 9" blade is fine. Don’t let that shaft get too long either. It is unnecessarily fatiguing to stroke with a long shaft. It increases your leverage on the water. Don’t let it get too short either. You don’t want to be leaning out of the canoe reaching down for the water, with your hand on the top of the blade. That gives you no leverage at all, and has the effect of ‘arming’ the blade (so that your arm becomes the shaft).

Special paddle information:

Below is some special information that might help you with your paddle selection.

What about angles? Choosing an angle is really not that complex. The double angle is something I created nearly 20 years ago, and it’s purpose was to alleviate wrist fatigue by oriented the lower portion of the shaft back somewhat so that it more naturally aligned with the wrist. It also has a slightly different feel to it than the straight angled paddles. And, is angled at about l degree more. Paddlers have informed me that the double angle also is kinder to their shoulders.

Greater angles generally go with a higher cadence. The straighter paddles are more for a slower cadence, and would be more appropriate for shorter races, and sprints. A paddle that is angled about l0 degree is good for outrigger racing. A l0 degree angle gives you good leverage and efficiency at the same time. My own double angles are about l2 degrees overall. The plant of the blade in the water feels a bit different, but is quite comfortable. Is it more efficient? It might be, but the angles in the double angle are really a matter of comfort.

Paddles specs:

Blade width, length:

Blade width of course has a lot to do with resistance. The wider the blade, the more water that is held. If you go with wider blades, you should consider shorter paddles. The shorter paddles create less sweep for the blade, shortening the length of the stroke, and making for less resistance. If you go with a longer paddle, you are going to have a longer stroke – and if you have to pack this stroke into a certain cadence, it means more fatigue, and quicker oxygen debt. The shaft length really has more to do with resistance than the blade width. Longer shafts are something only those who are in very good shape, with very strong strokes, should be interested in. If you are in the kind of shape that warrants a longer shaft, then by all means go with it. Your reach is increased, meaning you can place the power ahead of your body, which is where it belongs. 

                                    --feel free to contact me with questions                                       or input.</span>
5

Why not develop a finless surfboard to take maximum advantage of the paddle as both a means of propulsion and edge control? Perhaps re-establish a connection to ancient Hawaiian surfing?

6

Ha!!! A first I thought you were gonna say something like: a board that isn’t a board at all… Ha!

Unless of course, you know something about the ancient Hawaiians’ use of seal skins/bladders for some type of inflatable surf craft…

See ya soon - finally got the “gun” done, but have yet to test it out, so… Once I get some wave w/it, I’ll be by to give the report.

Thanks for putting up w/me ya’ll - Taylor

7

hows this…

from todd bradley’s site:

http://www.standuppaddles.com/

Check out Brian Keaulana’s board looks like he got it from Roy


217×569 72.8 KB

8

Cool thread!!!

If you’re gonna really get into this I suggest you make or buy a good paddle. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE! What I look for in a paddle is light weight, some flex, nice area, flat back with minimum scoop, fairly tight edge on back side, strength and comfort… Here’s my current quiver of paddles.

I tried a bunch more and I learned what works for my style of surfing… Now I pretty much know what I need out of a paddle…

These are the keepers…

A. I just bought it today. I went down to Island Paddler and found this baby kinda sitting off to the side looking like its been there a long time… It has the things I look for like a flat back with minimum scoop, good area, fairly stiff overall and comfortable in my hands… Plus its wood and I wanted the wood look for a certain project I’m working on… Its 48" long… Retail on it is around $150. Because it badly needed a home, I got it for $104… Cheapest paddle I ever bought new!

_

B. This is the one in all the pictures I been posting. Made by Kialoa. Its called a Dave’s Hybrid and I’m not to sure if they make them anymore… 48", flat back with minimum scoop… Good area and pretty stiff. Light and strong. This is my go to paddle for big days, small days, any day really… This is the paddle that all my experimenting led me too. If I had to choose only one, this would be it… Cost is around 200 bucks retail… Not a cheap paddle! I lost one and it HURT! Haha!

_

C. My Stand Up paddle from Todd Bradley at www.standuppaddles.com The length is one spread out hand span over my head form tip to tip. Stand Up blades have less area because you can’t pull a large blade from where you hold your hands… All carbon, light and oblong shaft for strength… This is the state of the art Stand Up Paddle… Better than Quick Blades etc… They are very strong and very light… Cost is $325 retail… Not a cheap paddle!

_

D. Todd made this prototype for himself to travel with. I convinced him he needed to sell it to me… Hehe! I use it when I want to stand up paddle AND knee paddle in the same session… It slides up and down so you can get whatever length you need. As far as I know only Brian Keaulana has one like it… I think this will be a common thing in the future but better made. It sticks when screwed to tight. Hard to unscrew in the water…

_

E. This was a 48" paddle that I bought and never used in the ocean. I brought it home and leaned on it but it had way to much flex. I was bummed I never checked it in the store… I was about to take it back then I hurt my foot and couldn’t surf that last week of December. I ended up cutting it down to 44" and using it to train with in waist deep water. I just stand there and paddle with it to stay in shape… The flex is perfect for this! Its now my training paddle I can do at home…

_

I can’t wait to see some of the paddles you guys are gonna make or purchase. You can buy them used for a fraction of the costs I listed… You will find out that paddles are more than just a stick with a chunk of wood on the end… But the reality is this… If you are gonna do this only on occasion and stay in tiny surf, a stick with a chunk of wood on the end will still work! Haha!

9

Oh yeah, I wanted to add this… I looked at a bunch of Gillespie Paddles today and almost picked one up. Very nice paddles built strong and beautiful wood work… I read the post from the site. Everything he wrote is true but that is geared towards canoe paddling. I would stay away from that lip he is talking about to help the paddle enter the water easier. That scoop slows you down on the wave and pulls you back if you drag it like this… The flatter back has very little resistence and even though its making that big wake, its not slowing you down…

Some of the Gillespie paddles have a big scoop or lip on it. Some they make nice and flat. I suggest getting a flat one for surfing with that 10 degree angle. The angle makes the paddle fit the wave better too. The paddle above has that 10 degrees on it… Canoe paddle makers make paddles for canoes. We as surfers will probably custom make even better ones in the future for what we do… If you like the wood design, the Gillespie Paddles are beautiful!

10

Dale, I did that in 76 with Merv Larson its ok when you sit but was really a challenge when standing, very fast but slidy.

11

Merv Larson Wave Ski

12

relative slidy

enhanced by the period bottoms

el merv larsen

of 76.

evo-up thru flats

to sopisticated log rolling

to sophisticated control an

articulated contour bottom

and viola we may see progress!

the displacement hulls w/reduced fin area

explored by clark large,

[not to confused with gordon extinct]

the flirtation with slidy has been the primary focus of many designs in our lifetime from the square tail-to the stinger on through fcs tail slides

the spontaneous track loss can and will continue to be

primary facination for the adept.

If it dosent releease from tracking it becomes sticky

lets say VIOLA a lot

and cop to the IST removable fin

that ,for the dislexic is the removeable finnyist

primary point being

surfcraft w/out paddles must be small enough to grapple

9’6 and under?

or look he’s so challenged [pc]

he cant hold the hoe [water stroking stick for uninformed punters]

pushing through the waimea shore break

or perhaps

he’s so tippy he cant hold an edge on a threeman length koa

olo standing up with a tahitian recurve paddle

although the identities of boards were so specific.

Uncle keoki’s ulu olo.

there is certainly no feeling like laying down a full railslide on a 18’ 200lb /400board while going throuh a section of full glassed bowling

overhead tropical blue sunlit cleanwater day.

pity we will all be likely to be denied such

exaulted experiences because

we have become addicted to the fin

and reduced reight surf craft…

and the water cant be cleared of all Kanaka

vulnerable to blunt force head trauma.

…ambrose…

every snowflake is different

and for some reason

each one is better than all the others

13

Just joined Swaylocks while I’m waiting for the weather to clear up.

I decided to try and make a stand up surf paddle since the commercially available paddles are quite expensive for my level of experience.

Not having ever made a paddle before, I did some internet research on what others have done. There’s quite a bit of information, especially on making the narrow Greenland kayak paddles. There is some information on regular canoe paddles which I adapted to designing a stand up surf paddle.

I got the lumber from a local hardware/lumber store. I was looking for spruce, but its really hard to find. I ended up with poplar and phillipine mahogany. No special reason except that they were available and relatively inexpensive. I patterned the design for the SUS paddle base on one of my single bend outrigger paddles. The total paddle length is 80 inches, and the blade will be about 9 inches wide.

I laminated two lengths of poplar to a center length of philipine mahogany. After I ripped the poplar shaft pieces I realized that the thicknessed were a little too thin. I compensated by ripping the center mahogany piece a little thicker (at the expense of a few more ounces of weight).

The blade is a standard teardrop shape of poplar with a veneer of mahogany on each side.

I started out trying to make a “T” grip, but now I’m gluing pieces on the top of the shaft to make a palm grip.

I’m using polyurethane glue to laminate all of the lumber. I don’t know how that will hold up in the salt water. I’ll seal everything with “Varethane”. If the paddle falls apart in the water I can always hand paddle the 12’ monster in.

I decided to keep this paddle simple so there are no bends in the shaft. I’m still shaping the blade and shaft (by hand, maybe I should get some power sanders).

The paddle now weighs about 46 ounces, before shaping (2 3/4 lb.) I hope to shave off enough wood to get it down to just over 2 lb.

mokulele

I need to get a card reader so I can post some pictures.

14

A paddle question…

I’ve never tried the standup paddle thing but have a little kayak and canoe experience.

After some frustrating canoe sessions with a conventional canoe paddle trying to buck the outgoing current in Morro Bay, I switched to a double ended kayak paddle. What a difference! Kneeling on a pad and using the double ender, I was able to make progress even against the outgoing tidal flow.

Does anybody use a double ended kayak paddle while stand up paddle surfing? Maybe use the outside blade when doing cutbacks???

15

I shaped a 10’-2" board that wandered every stroke with the canoe paddle so I bought a double ended kayak paddle. I only knee paddled it… It worked awesome for paddle speed and getting into the wave but was even more cumbersome than the long stand up paddle… Plus, when I got caught inside, that paddle was just so much to handle while getting pounded by waves… On smaller days, I think it would be fine if you don’t mind the size of the thing…

16

I’ve been SUP paddling a couple years now and I can tell you getting a proper paddle is a big plus and helped me heaps. I used a home-made / extended West Marine special for the first year or so and really struggled catching waves. I’m still on the same board: 11’ X 26 3/8 X 4 3/4 tandem, and it works great in the surf but I’m trying to find the right design for distance paddling ( 5 to 10 miles +). I’ve been experimenting with a couple old windsurfers (both 12’ 6" and plenty wide), but they wander much more than my tandem and the weight is a real drag ( 45 and 65 lbs). I though the semi-rounded displacement hull design would be great, but they are barges. I don’t see a lot of downswell conditions, so a flat water speed machine is what I’m looking for. I saw the pics of the racers on Todds site, and I’m thinking 14 to 16 might be a good length.

Anyone have any experience with these? What kind of dimensions are your boards VS. your weight and avg distance/speed?

17

Kirk,

Merv Larson made me a custom surf ski and double-bladed fiberglass (hollow shaft) paddle in the 1970’s. The ski is about 9’-0" x 4" x 24", square tail, his quick release seat belt, finless triplane bottom. Yeah… super fun, a great workout and “very fast but slidy!”

http://members.aol.com/Kayaksrfrs/merv.html

"The man that is given the credit from turning a ‘rigid’ surf ski into a maneuverable wave ski (including the seat belt) is the Californian Merv Larson who was definitely the first international wave ski surfer. He was an Olympic paddler in 1968 and has also been credited with inventing the surf kayak. Merv was featured in international surf movies ‘Pacific Vibrations’ and "Salt Water Wine’ in the late 60’s riding his finless 9ft wave ski across 10ft waves doing unimaginable maneuvers including ‘end for end’

loops…"

“Not only did he develop the best surf ski that I think has ever been made, I’ve never seen anybody that’s better than him.” (Patagonia founder Yvon Chouinard)

Merv Larsen was using a seatbelt, and underwater stereo (custom built into his helmet) in 1960’s. He also was first to be in surf movies, Surfer Magazine(Volume 11, No. 2, May 1970), plus using a finless triplane bottom. Merv has been seen paddling out upside down.

Neal Stephenson

Mike Johnson

18

Dale, Merv was way ahead of his time. Mike Johnson and his dad used to come by Yaters all the time, Im tryin to get the Journal to do a full article on Merv. Ive seen him do things on his surfskis that were just mind blowing. Also a really good craftsman and shaper. He got sick a few years ago, but I heard hes doin ok now , retired from Ventura harbour patrol.

19
Quote:

Merv has been seen paddling out upside down.

Huh??? Please explain this!!! Hahahahahahaha!!! My mind is trying to put it together… Hehe…

20

Ok, all due respect to the ski paddlers, but I still need some help with a stand-up paddleboard design. Parmenter has made a couple and he and Bongo, Archie, and Todd Bradley and a couple others have done Molokai (pics on Todd’s site). Anyone else have any experience with these craft? I want to stand-up paddle, feel the glide, and catch some runs.