looking at what the Alaia guys/gals are doing, it seems like we really don't need volume as much as we think? at least not for catching waves. is volume a luxury that makes paddling easier? in relation to surfer weight, is surface area, once you're up and riding, more important? whaddaya think?
Hey Chris, I have for a long time now viewed surfboard design as a balancing act between control/hold and speed/release. Alaia’s don’t have fins which generate a lot of control/hold. To make up for not having the fins to grip the wave face, they have very low volume rails. Having these very thin rails which allow them to bite into the wave face, can be really slow. To make up for the drag, the shape has an extremely flat rocker and straight outline.
Volume does help in catching waves, but it does have other functions. Volume is forgiving. Take a board with thicker rails and one with thinner, see how much harder it is to lay the board over on rail. Volume doesn’t hold into the face which is fine since the fins are. Thick rails float higher and allow a board to go faster when the surf is weak and junky. In the aforementioned conditions volume also makes it harder to bog the board when doing a turn. Fins are a much more effective means of adding hold/control to a board than super thin rails. Fins have a huge benefit of being able to allowing the vehicle to go into higher angles of attack than with out fins. Watch Alaia riders they only really have control through a very narrow range of climbing and dropping, the rest of time they are slipping and sliding. Do not get me wrong these guys are incredibly skilled, their sliding and slipping is very controlled and methodical like people drifting cars.
To summarize my thesis here: Volume does make catching waves easier, though it has other functions when a board has the additional control surface of fins. Surface area is crucial in planning but when on rail, volume/ buoyancy becomes significant factor.
I am very much a planing area guy. I prefer my boards super thin, a little wider, and very low-volume for my H/W. The waves I surf are generally pretty top-bottom, or at least have a bit of “throw” in the top third of the cresting wave, even when on the small side (NOTE: I do have beefier boards to ride when it is absolutly mushburger conditions) and find volume (both overall and in the rails) just gets in the way and dulls the synergy between the board and me, as the rider.
If you want to see how I like 'em, check out the Coil Springfish photos on the Coil Ride Reports thread. I like my rails low and pinchy, with no boxy or vertical edges.
I definitely agree with riderofwaves, volume is indeed forgiving, which is why Joes tend to like volume (relative to their physical size), but less reactive and “crisp”, which is why Pros typically do not (relative to their physical size). Of course their is a wide area of grey between the two extremes; I personally tend to lean towards the less-volume side of the continuum.
For me, it also tends to affect sensitivity and feel, and mutes the reaction time of the board to rider input. Hence my reason for not liking volume when the waves get good, but relying on it (those beefier shapes I mentioned in my previous post) when the waves are very weak and mushy (more opportunity to bog, lose planing, catch rails, so more volume tends to salvage otherwise-blown maneuvers).
I almost started a thread like this a while ago, with a very slightly different viewpoint; that alaias prove that lots of volume is not really needed for most good surfers.
It's well known that I believe good surfers should ride the minimum they can get away with. But that doesn't mean I don't shape some floaty ones for the guys that prefer 'em that way. A whole of personal preference at play in something like this. Long live custom.
Mike, just curious: There are guys who you shape for who prefer tail slides over carves. In general how do the tail sliders rails particularly in the back 1/3 of the board compare in profile and volume to those of a similar height and weight carver? This is also assuming they are of similar ability levels, just different riding styles.
As an interesting note, Hackey is 2 inches or so taller than me weighs about 30-45lbs more than me, and we both like just about the same volume in the RAIL. Having watched Hackey surf, I would say he is definitely a more rail conscience and focused on traditional power surfing(not to mention better than me). I definitely like doing big round houses but I am working on taking my approach a little more towards moves where I get my fins to release.
Hackey what volume are you currently riding as your general day to day board? I ask as I am guessing we ride similar volume to weight. Mine is .72 cu ft, and if I could reshape it I would foil it a tiny bit more to get some more flex and bring the volume down to about .70 - .71 cu ft.
In general, power guys like a little more rail volume. But there are lots of exceptions (like sak), and many other variables at play.
When I get done with my shaping for the day I can comment more if needed....
delete, double post....
Gotta be quick…
First off, don’t sell yourself short (or prop me up too high) Kyle, I thought you did a damn fine job surfin’ the one time we surfed together and felt like I was catching up to you as much as I thought I might be leading the pack.
Down to business: I actually do not consider myself a power surfer, per se., but shoot for “well roundedness”. I think I am indeed rail-oriented, but go for a more incision-and-precision-based use of the rail vs a bury and torque approach. Looking back, I think it is because I came of age/figured out surfing mechanics during the Slater “rocker chip” era, while many of the people with whom I surf also preceded me in this coming-of-age by a few years, doing so under the more power-based Occy/Curren rivalry. Mike actually shaped a Coil for one of my more Curren-esque friends (Mike: the 6’3" mini-swallow you shaped for Beck), who happens to kill it on that board (he excels on it and his brother, who is even a bit bigger, said he loves that board).
I think I might fool people into thinking I surf with power because 1) the thin rails I surf are indeed easier to bury, 2) I take a speed-based approach, so any turn gets magnified a bit, 3) I’m a bit bigger on average than the surfers riding the same dims (easier to sink it if you have the weight behind you), 4) the technique of my more power-based friends has probably rubbed off a bit on me over time, and 5) I’m probably a bit heavier-footed than a decade ago, when I was relatively on fire (both free-surfing and competitively), but still prefer, and can work with, the boards of lower dimensions that I “know” well.
Some people think the dimensions/volumes I ride are too small for me (on paper) (volumes run from as low as 0.75 (that is the extreme minimum for throwy waves where not much float is needed, just spin-and-go and pull-in) to the low 0.8x’s, if I remember correctly) , but I too believe in minimal board=max performance, so I think we are in the right ballpark with the current dims and volumes with which we are playing.
Also important to note that Mike and I did design out an Occy-esque “half-step-up” of slightly bigger dims and higher volumes for when things get burlier 'round these parts, particularly on my backhand, so I look forward to that experiment as well… always trying to keep that open mind and reassess things as we go along.
… Ok, I guess that was not all that quick.
GREAT topic, BTW. I plan to soak in a lot of good info as it develops here.
If you mean how they are performing on a wave I don’t think you need volume. But you have to look at realistic contexts. I have seen two guys actually in the line ups with alaias. One guy was just dropping in on people. That was the only way he was going to get waves. The other, well, I think guys finally got sorry for him and would let him have a couple insiders. I think there’s no way you’re going to compete in a crowded lineup with an under volumed board. Unless you’re OK with dropping in on people or taking scraps.
Great points there, I tend to avoid overly-crowded compressed lineups (crowds are ok if take-off zones are spread out or random, like on short-period windswells). If I HAVE to surf such a lineup, I will sit a bit more inside and off to the side of the pack on the peak and hope guys mis-time, or screw-up, their takeoffs, or get caught off-guard by wide- or tight-swinging sets… which happens frequently enough, especially as two or three guys paddle-battle each other and screw each other up, and I’ll be 15 feet inside/off to the side to take advantage of the situation.
For the most part, I can get my fill, except at the super-crowded A-list breaks, and even then I try to time it so I am in before the crowd so I can stand my ground for a bit and then relocate when things get too competitive.
For the most part, I’m nomadic and friends with the kingpins of numerous premier breaks, but have never been the kingpin myself, unless you want to include the small-pond breaks I tend to surf more often than not. Either way, it all works out in some way in the end; I rarely go home frustrated by the crowd itself, but it does happen from time to time. I suppose I could utilize a bigger board with more paddle under such situations, but it happens so infrequently it has not yet become part of my strategy.
Try ridding an Alaia at any thing less than a perfect point break or wave, not easy to impossible. At OB it is a bad joke.
That being said I did have a lot of fun on my 5’11" potato chip this weekend.
OK, I said I'd check back, but you guys are doing fine without me....
The thing we should all agree on is ''to each his own'', low volume boards aren't for everybody.
I think volume is based on what you’ve been riding for the last several years. If you ride thicker boards, you might have a hard time on a low volume board. If all you’ve ever ridden has been potato chip thrusters, you’ll be right at home with less volume.
I think the way volume is distributed, the rocker and the tail design is more important for performance.
I see guys riding 9’ modern longboards shredding all the time, but they tend to ride off the tail.
Sak, I was having a good day that day, I had been surfing a lot at that spot and had been nice and warmed up before anyone else paddled out. Also there really weren’t any good representatives of the Spring Lake talent pool there to put up as a contrast, the only other Spring Laker who surfs there with regularity was in Seattle.
As far as power there are really two schools of power surfing there is the technical school where perfect placement and and form generate the power(think Tom Curren and Slater) and then there is the raw power school, where the riders physical strength is a bigger source of power(think Tom Carroll and Sunny Garcia). I am just thinking in public but I would wager that the raw power prefers the flatter deck with thicker rails, and that the technical power people prefer the thinner edged boards. Volume is something to push against. The harder a turn gets pushed the more it needs something to push back against. Anyone watch Sunny at Sunset this triple crown? He was riding a board around 8ft, Dusty Payne was riding his “bigger board” which was 6’6"*. Dusty rips but against the he-man strength of Sunny, I don’t think he is that powerful.
Wave catching? If people get into a volume arms race for catching waves, I will put volume in my arms.
- on the day of competition I would be interested to see if Dusty was infact riding a 6’6"
Thickness, length , width , rocker . All come down to personal choice. Even 2 surfers of the same hight and weight may have different dimensions . Thats probly why as shapers we have so much to work with or we would do generic shapes for generic people. How many guy's get a board off the helf and go it would be better if it was a bit thicker , wider or longer. All good thats where custom comes in and one of the sways guys steps up and does his thing.
lots of food for thought here guys. thanks everyone for responding... i agree that when battling crowds and/or surfing a lineup where you need to "travel" around, volume is my friend... luckily, avoiding crowds is not usually an issue. as far as OBSF, yah, anytime i surf there i want more volume than would seem obvious just to help moving around... there are a few spots, though, that i like to surf especially in spring and summer where crowds aren't an issue and the lineup is pretty well defined without much current. i was inspired by THIS thread the first time i read it. particularly the foil that Mike put on that board pictured on the second page... on my next project (timberflex) i'm thinking about keeping familiar dimensions, same as my normal 6'2", but just foiling it similar to Mike's. i was hoping that the foil would compensate for the stiffness that lots of people seem to be reporting in regards to timberflex.
It feels good to ''inspire'' someone, thanks.
If you go that thin in the tail, you will need a strong bulld. Do that in 4 oz PU and it will break right in front of the boxes every time.