Kevlar is a no go! you need to lam kevlar under vacuum, otherwise it will suck so much resin so your board will become even heavier. And by using vacuum on a hollow core, the board is very likely to collapse.
On the other hand is a hollow foam core interesting, paul jensen did one. But why corecell? and why kevlar?
If you’re not a board builder, become a board builder first by building the conventional ways and try exotic things later.
Bro, there are materials. There is construction, There is design. Looking at one (data sheets) and ignoring the others? I say go for that warvel skin wood chamber thingy and get back to us after some water tests, if you ever get there. Hint: you can make a good boat anchor using resin/adhesives.
The answer to your question has been answered previously and material selection and process described in another thread. Get crackin yo.
hey justin
i know what you feel
you are so fucked with these stupid easily breaking boards, you just wanna rock.
i felt the same way when i made my first board, used epoxy that needed thermocure, vacuum, and exotic materials.
it surfed, yes
but… if you use many different materials that you dont know shit of, then shit + shit + no experience =… you know what!
so really, be that stubborn guy and build it your own way, i did too and later learned to listen to people with experience
as long as your budget is unlimited??
When you guys are done designing the unbreakable surfboard please move on to designing the unbreakable airplane, the unbreakable car, etc.
I have to qualify my last post by saying that there already have been (almost) unbreakable boards out at Backdoor, etc. The ‘‘edge’’ boards of Bunker Spreckels and co., at about 5’ long and 5’’ thick, would be about as close as you’re gonna get.
Why can’t I find the WMD thread? When I search “WMD” nothing comes up. any links?
It’s on page 2 right now.
As far as what I’d build, I went through everything I could think of over the years …MD could tell you. The WMD compsand, T-Flex is the result. Adding things like spring and improving flex charateristics are in the near future. In fact I look forward to hearing what others do in this regard. Over the last couple years I’ve been studying the sister sports for ideas. For the most part their ahead of us. So here’s a quick hint , snowboards use mostly wood cores , sailboards use eps cores with HD foam and wood veneers and carbon. Skateboards use wood veneers. Each application is different and have their own requirements so they differ, but you get the dirft. Finding the correct balance of materials for a particular application is the quest.
The reason for using EPS in the core is that cores need to be filled. The failure of every hollow board construction since Surf-jet in the early 70’s till today has proven this (although Aviso is still trying). IMO surfboards should also be “shaped” not molded. There are too many design options and surfing is a sport which uniquely requires this kind of bredth in design. EPS allows for all the things nessasary in the lightest core you can get without going to something out of the NASA play book. IMO combining EPS with urethane gives the best of both … performance, durability and design capability.
In all the years of doing this I’ve seen four things that I felt we’re “magic” in construction.
High fiber ratio … done by bagging. Great strength to weight. Resistant to fatique. Pack twice as much fiber into the same weight. Disadvantage - difficult to achieve excellent results. Some know how. Coil
Carbon Fiber fabrics. Incredible strength to weight. Allows for lighter laminates that have good compression. Incredible flex return. Good against fatique. Disadvantage - Black color.
Wood veneer composites - Incredible strength per weight. Incredible flex return and resistance to fatique. Can be used with any fabric backing. Combines perfectly with WMD blanks. Disadvantage - a bit more cost … about like a good airbrush.
Sandwich construction - ala Bert Rutan. All sailboards are built this way which is why they last more than an hour in the water. Disadvantage - difficult to achieve good results - difficult in production. Firewire.
So there’s where to look. Don’t bother with looking anywhere else because your answer lies within the four or in a combination of those four…
Thanks Greg, Informative. I have some comments…
1. High fiber ratio … done by bagging. Great strength to weight. Resistant to fatique. Pack twice as much fiber into the same weight. Disadvantage - difficult to achieve excellent results. Some know how. Coil
What constitutes high fiber/resin ratio for surfboards? Would 1:1 qualify? How about 1:0.8? Ive done 1:0.6 by hand.
2. Carbon Fiber fabrics…
I’d say COST is the biggest detractor…at least for me. Color being almost as bad as cost.
Good post.
I can sure vouch for that… Long before there was a Swaylock’s, Greg was doing very ‘‘swaylockian’’ things on an almost weekly basis. Brainstorming up new build tech variations was like a full-time job for him. For the past 25 years we’ve discussed all of this. I remember us saying a long time ago that it would be cool if others could somehow listen to these crazy conversations we were having. We didn’t always agree, I’m sure he walked away a few times a little pissed at me. And I got fed up with some of his antics also. But we always maintained a mutual respect that I think we both came to value.
Now we get to do this on Sways and people CAN listen. Thanks, Mike Paler…
Yes, discussions were always lively. But now were on different tracks but both within the realm of the four magic groups and I think we basically agree on 99.9%.
Yea Craftee, carbon cost and then what to do with the damn black in the sun. We used to paint carbon sailboards so the carbon would cost $200 and the paint would cost another $100 and then the labor to paint would cost another $100. No one realized how expensive it was to cover up.
And yea, thanks to Mike.
What about going to Speedneedle and getting a custom?
You’ve got your production firewire as a starting point. He made Taj’s so I reckon would be able to make you one for Hawaii.
I like you find the idea of the perfect surfboard attractive but haven’t the time, money or skill to make the necessary experiments. Pu’s fine for me here and now, if I needed more there’s some inspirational guys and techniques here and Speedy seems to be a way down the high tech road.
Yeah, really good post on the “4 things”. And thanks for the explanation about X-glass and why it doesn’t break like uni. Counter intuitive to an old school engineer. Like the fool at the turn of the 20th century who said we have discovered everything and there is nothing left, I sometimes think that with vac-bagging, T-Flex, X-glass, multidensity cores and epoxy, there is nothing left to discover; we have reached the pinacle of “surfboard-dom”. Right. Except Coil. And Coil Rev2. And so on.
To MD’s point, I sometimes can’t believe what an incredible resource this site is. How amazing that any bonehead like me could find 20 years worth of boardbuilding knowledge in these pages and learn it well enough to build credible equipment that you are not embarrassed to be seen with.
One of the cool things about getting boards from GL 15 or 20 years ago was driving down to the factory and getting to peek behind the curtain. It was like a candy store. Or perhaps a porn shop for some of us. I couldn’t “look” fast enough to take it all in. And Greg never let you leave without showing you some new thing he was working on. I always left amazed and wanting more.
Back to the topic. Justinr, you are now authorized to build that corecell dream and as it has been said so many times before here on Sways:
"Build it, ride it and report back here". Perferably with pictures.
“…the NASA playbook…”
Where can I get one of THOSE?
Also, I’ve heard spiders have a few secrets…spiders as in arachnids, not Dennis Jarvis…