Pointy-nosed noseriders

I recently made 2 similar noseriders, both about 9’7 x 23" with rolled bottoms and 50/50 rails - one with a wide nose (19") and the other with a narrower nose (17"). Both have the wide point behind centre, but obviously the rails of the wide-nosed board are much more parallel.

The thing is, I’m convinced that the narrow-nosed board noserides better than the wide-nosed board (at least in decent waves). I don’t know if this makes sense, but I feel like its maybe not quite as easy to hang five at will, but it’s actually easier to hang ten.

I’m thinking about why this is, and these are some of my thoughts:

  • The pig outline places the board at a slightly different angle to the wave than the more parallel-railed board;
  • With less volume (and hence mass) at the front, it swings around more easily and is easier to set up;
  • I can see the water immediately around the nose better;
  • I can feel the nose flex a little bit more as I hang over the end; and
  • The narrow nose enhances the feeling of flying over the water, simply because there's less board between rider and wave/air.
I haven't yet surfed it in mushy waves, so I don't know how much of a trade off there'll be in marginal conditions.

Any thoughts?

Tim

P.S. I’ve got pics that I’m trying to add, but so far unsuccessfully.

The problem with noseriders is that they’re noseriders…

The problem with noseriders… is well that they’re noseriders… Why? Because everything prior to actually getting out and sticking your wigglies off the end, isn’t about noseriding. My guess is, you get this, hence your choice for a pulled and slimmed nose. Sounds to me like you’re opting for technique rather than the dedicated gizmo solution.

Nevertheless, two inches in width is actually a lot. Surface area is width times length, so that extra two inches is sort of a multiplier (not exactly, but the contribution to surface area grows rapidly with the smallest increment in width.) This is not to say that many don’t enjoy ‘wide’ (Heck there was a guy at the beach the other day who had some sort of gizmo just to help him hold his wide board. Apparently his arms weren’t long enough. But maybe I’m being insensitive, the length of arms across the human species does vary. My guess is that some on this forum have extraordinarily long arms, perhaps even drag a knuckle or two. But I digress…)

The fact is that you haven’t revealed your stats, and have only hinted at your preferences. I’ve seen guys do wonders on lollipop like boards. As long as you can bring to bare the right amount of surface area at the right moment, you’re likely to make it work. A little nose concave will likely help, but its not critical – technique really does count. And like I mentioned it sounds to me like your into technique (proper trim speed etc.)

But that’s just me… others here are likely hold far more well developed beliefs about some of the subtleties you’ve outlined. I’m no longer sure where my objective analysis stops and aesthetic bias begins. I do know that building a dedicated noserider is just asking for problems. Its not quite as bad as say, building boards which paddle and catch waves well – the actual surfing part being just an after thought.

kc

Thanks for the comment, KC.

As to my stats, I’m about 160 pounds; and reasonably competent - I made it to the finals of my division (36 - 40 yrs) in our national longboard championships.

As to your other comments, noseriders are certainly anything but fast and snappy - but as much as that’s a problem, its also their charm. I have a “high performance” longboard, but only really surf it in contests. In any conditions that I’d rather surf the HP board, I’d actually rather surf a shortboard. IMHO, the HP longboard is a compromise forced by flawed judging criteria.

Having said that, I find the HP board very easy to hang five on, but exceptionally difficult to hang ten - and perhaps there’s something in that relevant to this discussion: I think that the dynamics of hanging five and hanging ten are very different. One can hang a decent five either by planing on the wide nose or by being properly set in and cantilevered on the tail. On the other hand, an extended hang ten (other than just a momentary one) requires being properly set in on the tail - in which case the area of the nose has little effect, other than getting in the way. Makes me think - maybe my next noserider should be 6 foot with a 3 foot bowsprit! :slight_smile:

And I agree that 2" is a big difference - it really feels very different. When I look down, I see much more water.

Then, as to the arm-length issue - I can only just get my arm around these boards.

OK, let me try the photos again… Somethings changed and I don’t seem to be able to upload photos anymore. Hmm…

Tim

I agree, 5 and 10 are different from in a number of ways -that is 10 is not just an extreme version of 5 (or should I have written 'twice five' or something like that).

...hanging ten

From the surfers standpoint, he simply isn't in a stable position, his weight falls, more or less right between his legs and his stance is just about the worst stance you take while surfing (unless you on a SUP?) He can shift his weight a bit, left and right, maybe even a wee bit forward and back but compared to the degrees of freedom you have with five, it's really minimal.

.... cantilevered?

As for the fluid dynamics, I'm not sure about the cantilevered analysis. The idea that you've somehow got a wave, which is flowing up and forward acting in some way acting to counter-balance you way out on the nose? That may be what it looks like is happening, but the physics behind is a stretch. Same for the 'suction' or 'water falling upon my tail' theories. Most don't really seem to understand how powerful the force of planing is. With the right flow velocity and the right surface area presentation to that flow its amazing how much force can be generated.

In order to noseride you need to be able to capture the right amount of flow. As for leverage, remember that you're on a fairly long lever and the pivot point (if you can call it that) is damn close to where you're dropping your weight. So even if you think its a pretty light board, you've got this 9' foot lever working for you. That, plus you're own comments, I believe answers you're question. Like you've stated, you're angled into the wave. It may appear as though you out there all by your lonesome, but chances are you're capturing a lot of the face at an angle – its just not showing up on the beachside of the board until it travels diagonally farther alone the board. All that foamy stuff coming out from under the nose, isn't wake in the formal sense – its what is called spray root. Its water that has be literally sent off in the opposite direction. That is its momentum has been completely reversed, which makes for a lot of force development under the nose, or wherever it occurs for that matter. Check out the spray coming out from under the forward section of guys on shortboards. In fact that's what's nose riding is, its turning your longboard into a really really lame shortboard (with some extra leverage from all that board dragging behind you.)

All that said (with questionable authority) I can't help think back to that video of Robert Machado nose riding a 6 something on some insane G-Land wave.

kc

Interesting thread…

I have 2 logs in my current quiver. One is and egg stretched out to 9’6" - no exaggerated hips just a smooth curve nose to very round tail. The nose is narrow, may even bee 16" with a slight concave blendning out into belly through the tail. It has pinched 50/50 rails and no kick in the tail at all, very flat. It noserides well, but takes a while to figure out. Kinda like a reward for time served. And when you get it, you really get it…

I really prefer the narrow nose for almost any conditions, as with the round tail it turns like a dream, and doesn’t hang if you’re being lazy and dropping in late…

I’ve been wanting to make a real pig(doh!) but never seem to get around to it.

Fins surely make a difference as well?..

Well put, I log as my bread and butter and I will say the pig is often overlooked as inferior to wide center or front of center craft- usually because people feel they’re ugly. Swing weight is a factor but I think a small one. I’d bet that the rail line and trim speed figure more into the performance on the tip. I had a Velzy pig that you could have a party on up front. Not a fan of the lollipop, I always thought the dedicated noseriders were too one trick. Noserides are sauce, not meat.

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The problem with noseriders is that they're noseriders.._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________.                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

My theory’s a bit more simplistic…

In order to have the appropriate amount of nose surface planing under your feet, the rail of the narrower nosed board must necessarily be deeper in the face of the wave than the wider nosed board. Combine that with your level of skill, rolled bottom and 50/50 rails, and that explains it for me.

So why don’t most noseriders have narrower noses? Because the Average Joe dosen’t dosen’t see them on the rack, may not have the skill to set them up, or whatever… The lollypop is a proven design, and easier to noseride, all other disadvantages aside.

Check out the noseriding in the Endless Summer, Lance Carson at Malibu.

Or for a couple of hours of the same kind of footage check out Jamie Budge’s “The Living Curl”. Footage from the early sixties Cal point break. This was pre noseriding board era for the most part and most of the boards would have had 15 1/2 to 16 1/2" noses.

If you’re up for some fun… lets try a crude analysis.

Lets start with an ideal model, nothing complex here, basic stuff. It’s all contained in figure 1 – the Ideal Case.

[img_assist|nid=1042615|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=585|height=821]

By the way, hopefully you have some appreciation for what a torque is – it’s that which tends to rotate a body about some axis. Here, I’ve chosen that axis to be at the nose, but any other point would have just fine.

Some immediate questions come to mind: Do these forces from planing exist, have they sufficient magnitude, and does this treatment really make sense?

Do these forces of planing exist?

Below is a diagram taken from the work of man called Savistsky. The pressure profile drawn above the plank was Savistsky best guess, so some caution should be exercised in its interpretation.

[img_assist|nid=1042453|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=562|height=549]

Nevertheless, placement of the peak pressure above the what is called the stagnation line is likely accurate, as is the development of the spray root -i.e. all that water that is literally turned around and tumbles around in front of the plank. Notice Savistsky has the pressure profile tailing off as you move towards the tail. Does this mean that the forces of planing exist because Savistsky says they do? No, its because Savistsky did the research and backed it all up with (reproducible) data.

Do such forces have sufficient magnitude?

Savistsky provides us with a formula, lets use it just to see what kind of numbers we are talking about for the kinds of flow velocities that one might expect on a wave face. Lets take start with a guess of 1 m/s (that’s one meter per sec, or about 2 mi/h). The density of sea water, that’s the rho in the formula, is about 1020 kg per meters cubed. So the pressure as suggest by Savistsky’s formula, using these values would be about 510 N per meters squared.

To get an actual force we’ve got to multiple this pressure by area. Lets assume that the plank is 17 in wide or 43 cm wide. To get an area we’ll need a length of this, call it s, so the total area is s times 43 cm. Better convert to meters, so this becomes s times 0.43 meters squared, where s is now given in meters.

So now we have, for a length of plank equal to s, a force of roughly s(.43) 510 N (that’s newtons), or doing the multiplications, s219 N. You’re 160 lb, which is 712 N (-i.e. your mass is 73 kg). Which would mean that we would need a length of 3.25 meters to support your weight. Wow? Thats a lot of 17 inch wide board?

Lets tweak the numbers a bit, in fact let’s just tweak the flow velocity. It’s squared so we’ll stand to get the biggest effect with the smallest change.

Lets raise it from 1 m/s to 1.5 m/s that’s about 3 mi/h, so 510 N per meters squared becomes 1450 N per meter squared. Our final s-formula becomes s1450 N, where s is in meters. So again, to support your 712 N you would need 0.5 m of plank (a section around 17 inches wide and 1.5 foot long.) It would seem that velocity of the flow is likely to be critical. This is not a precise exercise, even so these numbers are not all that unrealistic either. (You can noseride in mushy slow conditions, but you’re likely to involve a whole lot more of your board to do it. Remember velocity is squared, so you get a whole lot more bang for the buck if you can put you and your nose in a more critical position on the wave.)

Lets say we’ve got your weight covered. Now we’ve got that other weight to worry about, the weight of the board. Lets assume the board’s weight (with fin) is about 20 lbs or 90 N. Using our s-formula and solving for s we get 0.06 meters, that is we’ll need an extra 6 cm or 2 inches of 17 inch wide board to handle that.

Thinks about this, crude as it is, if it even approaches what’s going on, we got your weight and the boards weight covered in .7 or meters of plank? Wow, you’ve just got to wonder what trouble the rest of the board is getting itself into.

Does this treatment make sense?

Well, okay it really is crude, but even so, its not ‘wild and crazy’ crude. The actual analysis would involve a lot more. Admittedly, I have taken some liberties here, but given the circumstances, I don’t think I’ve been all that unreasonable. The real point was to see if the forces and torques involved require introducing ‘extraordinary’ effects etc. like ‘suction’ etc. to balance your weight on the nose.

There is a lot going on under a surfboard, but until you can rule out the straightforward kind of reactions, like planing, evoking other effects seems, at least to me unnecessary – unless your trying to sell some gizmo.

…it this really a reasonable treatment?

Anyway, I’m sure people will find problems with this simplistic treatment. e.g. “Yeah, well what if the guys is like right on the nose” Fine, but then how fast is the flow, and exactly how is the bottom surface interacting with the flow, and for that matter, how long was he up there on the nose. Fact is if you move to an accelerated situation things change rapidly, and its amazing what you can get away with for a moment or two (especially if you’re in a sort of free fall), before it all collapses (or you do a nose dive.) The above treatment assumed something approaching what you can call a constant velocity case, or static analysis.

…torques?

Also, you may be wondering why the center of gravity of the board isn’t at the center of the board, or perhaps you understand why it’s not, which would be my hope. Fact is, if you add a fin and all that goes with it, a box, more matrix, etc. you push the center of gravity towards the tail. In fact, perhaps you’ve use a performer fin (a.k.a. hatchet fin). Sure hatchet fins, and its brethren (ask Probox-Larry for history) provide some real stability, but they also tend to weigh a lot. If there ever was a way to shift the center of mass of your board towards the tail, it was with one of those fat boys. But if you’ve been following, you might be wondering why shifting the center of gravity closer to the tail matters – heck it really didn’t seem to matter in this ideal analysis.

It matters because, in this model I’ve taken the liberty of modeling the forces developed during planing as localized directly under the position of the surfer and the center of mass of the surfboard, which is not likely to be the case. They may be close by, but they in general move they around. And when they aren’t directly under the surfer or center of gravity of the board, you’ve got to take into account where they are to resolve the torques. And when you do, pushing the center of gravity of the board towards the tail can really make a big difference.

… more?

So the next more actuate model might be to move them a bit, hither and dither. Then once we do that, we can get into how the angle of the board impacts the torques, and once we do that,… well how about before we do anything somebody goes out and gets some funding for all this research… perhaps we can get some from all those people making wads of cash selling those noserider and other enhanced performance gizmos… this is terrible…my envy shows doesn’t it… deep down I’m probably as much of a con-man as anyone… they were just first to market.

kc

…yes, few years ago, I asked J Phillips if a 9´ with a pulled in nose will be a good noserider

and he told me that for some reason the noses were dramatically increased

but before those noses the guys hangten, riding the nose, etc

in my opinion, a longboard with wider nose is good only in small and super clean surf

in the other scenarios that parallel outline and fuller nose is a bad design

Some good noserider observations in this archived post, including Jim commenting on nose width.

http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1016766

Of course, I found this after I just shaped a wide nose version for this summer!

Loved that link. The pig is just such a great design for a log. Velzy told me that his pig design was done with beachbreaks in mind to lower swing weight etc… but they are amazing in good point conditions as well. Noserides in the pocket and bucket chucking wheelhouses in the flats. They get up and boogie out of a stall much more so than the WP forward designs gives that rush of speed from stall to full trim, like sliding across the kitchen floor in your socks. Fun Fun.

KC,

With regard to your model, I want to raise the following thoughts:

  1. I think that the empirical observations of many great surfers and shapers can't be disregarded. In this regard, rail and rocker profiles seem to make a real difference. Is the model valid if it is based simply on the planing of flat surfaces?
  2. Also, the difference in weighting between pearling and staying in trim - the legendary "body english" involved in noseriding - is very subtle, making it very difficult to account for small changes.
  3. However, the fact that the analysis is difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't try :-)
  4. I agree that we should start with a constant velocity case, with the forces in equilibrium - i.e. net torque about a "horizontal" transverse axis equals zero, and net forces up/down equal zero. (Free-fall hang tens work momentarily because everything is falling at the same rate, and need not be considered.)
  5. Can we exclude static forces from the enquiry? According to Savitsky, the contribution of dynamic lift increases as speed increases, whilst the contribution of buoyancy decreases. (If you're not moving, the centre of buoyancy determines the location of the net lifting force, and it's nowhere near the nose - hence pearling as you lose speed on the shoulder.)
  6. The problem I see is that we can't determine the location of the centre of effort of the planing force, and without doing that we can't determine whether the other forces balance.
  7. In our most extreme case (hang ten), all the weight of the rider is located on the tip. Therefore, if we calculate the torques about an axis through the nose, this can be removed from the torque equation. However, the forces up and down stay the same. Is the pearling torque then simply equal to the torque of the board's weight? Or is there another force (drag, suction) pulling the tail down?
  8. From observations by others and my own experience, round railed boards reach a maximum speed, at which drag simply stops the board accelerating further. It seems to me that the best noserides (the kind when you really feel like the nose is just rising out of the water, and you couldn't sink it if you tried) occur at that point. I've never experienced that kind of noseride with a "performance" board (with release rails), and I rightly or wrongly conclude that these are related.
  9. Lastly for now, I've been thinking about it, and I would say that my narrow nosed board may not be as easy to get up to the nose; but because you can only get up there at all when it's properly set up, hanging ten is then just about as easy as hanging five. So, basically, it forces you to surf with better technique, and (this may sound weird) I can feel it clearly when the board is ready for me to go to the nose. (It tells me! ;-)
Tim

1. ditto – Experience is king.

But yes and no with regards to the second part of the comment. Call it a compulsion, but I just have this need to always check the numbers first, whenever possible, before attributing too much to some effect. I just wanted to point out that the magnitude of the forces that can be developed during planing are sufficient.

Does that rule out a role for the coanda effect for example? Hardly. A tool is a tool in design, and the fact that I can’t slap some number on something doesn’t mean much when a whole lot of journeymen are saying otherwise. Again – experience is king. By the way, its not like I need to anyway. I done some pretty strange things to blanks with much justification, not even experience.

2. I agree.

3. I also agree. But being ‘cranky’ (okay, whiny) seems to be apart of what I am. I’m not proud of it, but it has given me a lot of alone time to think about such things… I guess that’s an upside?

4. and 5. Static in mechanics means that none of the bits of the system are accelerating, they can be in motion, just that they’re in constant motion, as in having constant velocity.

The static approach is a good start. Once you’ve got something that seems to come close to what you want to model, you can then start to tweak it. In a way, it’s a way of controlling the number of variables you’ve got to worry about. Other than that, sure.

By the way, its amazing what you can do in free fall, or at least appear to be doing…and in surfing it occurs a lot, and surfers do take advantage of it, if only to impress the crowds on the beach… think about it the next time you hit the lip.

Also, see my little extra below on Savitsky.

6. No and yes. Please consider looking anew at surf photos, this time with the objective of locating the ‘spray root’ -i.e. that bit of foam and spray coming out from under the front of the board. With longboards is a bit more spread out, but its usually very pronounced for shortboards. The spray root is all that water which has been literally turned around after impacting the bottom, and the stagnation zone or line is usually nearby -i.e. the zone or point of peak pressure generated by planing.

But then, exactly what the pressure profile looks over the whole board, other than a reasonable guess at its general characteristics, is for the moment not possible. I’ll let you know when I win the lottery and buy myself some sensors and all the rest of the apparatus that would be required to make the measurements… that’s after I get back from my world kook tour, and recover from exhaustion as a result of excessive hedonism.

7. Nice. Statics is not completely unfamiliar to you, perhaps? But we are still faced with you comment number 6.

8. I think I agree, I’m just sure I agree as to why. But I do agree that a “round railed” board is in general harder to set up or position well, in general. I’d like to give this more thought regarding its impact on acceleration, at least the way you’ve described it.

9. See my comments below about ‘a blind man can surf’.

BONUS RANT! ( … oh, joy?)

Some Additional Notes on Savitsky

…classical planing

To my knowledge Savitsky wasn’t interested in planing as it applies to surfing. He interest was in hydroplaning in watercraft, particular those watercraft powered by an inboard or outboard motor. He analyzed planing on flat horizontal water surfaces, and the net result of planing was indeed what you have referred to as dynamic lift (and all that accompanied it). Lets call this classical planing.

… propulsive planing

To see how planing becomes a means of propulsion in surfing you have to, at least for a start, rotate the diagram in my post so that Savitsky’s horizontal surface tends to reflect the angled surface of the face of a wave. Once you do that you can see that the forces of planing will then have a component or components both in the direction of the wave motion, and if the plank is oriented correctly, along the wave (down the line). That is, planing now becomes a means of propulsion, the ‘outboard or inboard external power source’ being the flow of the water up the face of the wave. I call this propulsive planing.

This is not to say that both are at times operating during surfing. If you take a big drop, as in slide right down the face of the wave, you’re likely using both kinds of planing. However, in this case, most of your increase in kinetic energy is a result of your dropping through a gravitational field. To make this clearer, think about those times where you seem to get a little too far out in front of a wave and have to wait for it to catch up, or even when you get a little too far out onto the shoulder and have to cutback to re-establish your “connection” – it’s that little push that tells you propulsive planing has kicked in once again. Avoiding such positions seems to be part of surfing’s learning curve, which is remembered, but rarely discussed.

With regards to the location of the peak pressure of planing, shortboarders know it well – they surf it! In fact, I bet, if you could get one up and going, a blind man could surf by using his feet alone. He may not win any contests, but that force is palpable, at least more often than not for shortboarders. For longboarders the peak is slightly more distributed, but there nevertheless. In fact I would suggest it is what is telling you “it’s time to strut” most of the time, you can feel the peak shifting and moving.

… just another tool

As regards to static buoyancy, its a tool and its used a lot by people to sneak out onto the nose. Tools are tools in design, but technique is ultimately what its all about.

Anyway, that was fun. Thanks.

kc