Pop Outs- lets point the fingers at ourselves - We All let this happen

General Discussion
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Does anyone have an opinion concerning free trade agreements such as NAFTA, CAFTA, or the WTO and their affects on domestic surfboard manufacturing? It seems that there is some concern out there about boards being made cheaper overseas due to a lack of environmental regulations and labor standards. I guess a first question would be, are overseas manufacturers abiding to ILO standards? ILO being the International Labor Organization. It is well known that the WTO agreements allowing flight of capital with no trade regulations has created a “race to the bottom” in the garment industry. Trans-national corporations shop 3rd world countries for the lowest wages and miserable working conditions for maximum profits. How do we know if surfboards are or are not being made in sweatshops?

matt vecere

I think Mr. Surf editor has tapped into something here (The BIG PICTURE) . First off its really a joke to think that we can police international labor laws. I dont know if any of you remember that in Los Angeles about 10 years ago a garment factory was exposed for running a type of indentured servant/slave operation with labor being smuggled in from South Asia. Now if this can happen in our own backyard what are the chances that we will be able to monitor some far distant jungle in the middle of India? International labor laws only serve as a facial rouse. Big time investors know its slave labor which is exactly why they invest in it so heavily.

How many of us surfers (or just Americans in general) passively sat by and didn’t bother to follow NAFTA and WTO events in the 90’s (by the way WTO is like the 4th name for this organization… the big monied interests figured if they keep changing the name the people wont figure it out). In Seatle thousands from all around the world wreaked havok just to draw attention to the WTO so that Americans would learn that it exists and how it threatens us. I know that there are alot of older folks here on this site… Do you guys remember the debates between Ross Perot and Al Gore?..Remember prediction by Ross Perot?..He said that if NAFTA passes there would be a sucking sound of Americans jobs going to Mexico…I know NAFTA specifically applies to Mexico and the pop outs from China but the larger issue here is

GLOBALIZATION. I didn’t hear sufers bitch back than about international labor but there sure were alot of people hurting in Flint Michigan in the 80’s and 90’s. Are surfers collectively as a group just selfish apolitical tools? Most Americans are so wrapped up in there own self interests that they don’t bother to educate themselves in political matters until there own piece of the pie shrinks. WTO, NAFTA, EU, EMU are all powerful trade regimes where decisions that impact the lives of countless human beings are being made by annonymous beuracrats in complete secrecy. Both the Democrats and Republicans both support GLOBALIZATION with little protection for workers or the environment. In fact our government pays corporations big BUKOO $'s (corporate welfare) to export American Jobs Abroad. If we continue to ignore the bigger issues we don’t stand a chance against our corporate masters. Our only chance is if we collectively open our eyes and form grassroots movements (that includes not just surfers…a bunch of surfers VS. the Huge Corporations…hahahahahah…a bad joke). Of corse the only way this could happen is if people are able to see beyond their own self absorbed lives. We live in a open and free society and if we choose to be ingnorant and lathargic we have nobody to blame but ourselves. As we scream out “Anybody who rides a surftech is a KOOK” the folks in Flint Michigan are holloring “Anybody who drives an Import Car or Car with imported parts is a trader to America”. Can any of us see the bigger picture or are we all just caught up in our own selfish interests? Multi Nationals have both of the big political parties in their pocketbooks so what is concerned citizen to do?

http://washingtontimes.com/business/20040617-101111-7156r.htm

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‘Werd’ to you Paulobaka,

And on the subject of environmental regulations it is strange that some traditional foam board manufactuters are suddenly worried about whether or not surf tech and other ‘popout’ companies are following good environmental guidelines in their overseas factories. ‘Traditional’ polyurethane foam blanks are an environmental disaster, they are blown with toluene di isocyanate which destroys our atmosphere. Surf tech are reported to be using methyl di-isocyanate which is not quite as bad, as it is less vloatile. There were moves afoot to stop the manufacturing of blanks blown with toluene but they were torpedoed by surf industry bigwigs. Thus the entire foam board building industry (which amounts to a global franchise) is hypocritical if it attempts to use environmental concerns as a way of fighting for market share. Let them go to the wall. Wooden boards are the future.

Roy

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Oh my, he showed his head, it must be ground hog day.

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Say something intelligent for a change. Don’t you care about the environment?

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I’m sure we all care about the environment. But at the same time I think that there are far bigger problems in the world than polyurethane foam being used for surfboards. Everyone could drive their car 10% less and that would by far make up for every surfboard in the known universe… try walking to the beach next time if you can, or ride a bike…

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Quote:

Say something intelligent for a change. Don’t you care about the environment?

I’ll dig in and try to stir up some small resemblance of intellect. I should know better than to be sarcastic of our governing/corporate discussions. Sorry Roy, my pig headed remark was not aimed at you, more the nafta, cafta, ILo BS. It makes my mind go num.

I recycle, compost, save water, vote, don’t own a surftech, and even wash my zip lock bags. What’s it get me? Mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore. Ok, where were we? Flint Michigan, suftech, Mexico, trade agreements…man I got to go.

BTW – wood boards are cool, and I like your trip over there in N.Z. You all set a good example for the rest of the world.

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Keith,

I hear you. However the situation is very serious. Just talking about driving one’s car a little less is not going to help much, although it is a nice idea. Every atmospheric pollutant is a problem and we are probably going to have to use our cars 99 percent less and stop using toluene blown blanks and stop a host of other toxic habits including unnecessary air travel if we are to save the situation. Surfboard shapers can’t be let off the hook that easily.

An acquaintance of mine down here invested heavily in MDI blown blank technology in an attempt to provide environmentally friendlier blanks to shapers in New Zealand. You might remember that back in about '98 there was a ‘protocol’ to outlaw TDI blown blanks which was in the process of becoming ratified when the US backed out of it. New Zealand shapers were thus not forced to make the change and shunned the new MDI blanks even though they are a good product. This is in spite of the fact that it is illegal to blow TDI blanks in New Zealand.

These and other observations have led me to the opinion that shapers will not change unless they are forced to. If bankruptcy is the only way to change a manufacturers toxic behaviour then so be it.

We are on this planet for the long haul. It’s time for people in the ‘First’ world to stop their mad rush to consume, burn, and throw the toxic results into the upper atmosphere and oceans.

Surfers tend to assume that they care about the environment simply because they appreciate the ocean’s beauty, and some truly do care. The surf industry, however, has hidden environmental atrocities behind mass advertising for too long. Fortunately the ingredients for pollution (which are predominantly fossil fuel based) are definitely going to run out.

Yours Sincerely, R Stewart

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Not sure how to answer…

I know Harley-Davidson was granted tariff treatment against import bikes and that saved the company. Chrysler and the rest of the auto makers raised hell and just about managed to tax the imports out. People still paid more for what was perceived to be a better import product. Even Lee Iacocca cut his salary to something like a dollar and after a government handout, managed to keep Chrysler alive.

Frankly, I dont think a bunch of surfers can organize and develop enough political clout to lobby effectively in this direction. With environmentalists nipping from one side and imports nipping from the other, domestic manufacturers have a tough road ahead.

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Well Roy -

Just me, but I think it’s better to strive for incremental change that can realistically be accomplished. Everyone can drive 10% less. Very few are going to eliminate their cars or give up air travel, nor will you ever get political support for such a proposition in the First, Second, or Third world (trust me, they all want cars…)

I have a suggestion for you, if you really think wood surfboards are the answer. Start working on developing a wood shortboard that doesn’t weigh any more than a foam one, or weighs even less. You (or others) could sell LOTS of them (assuming a price close to market). Unfortunately, there is a really limited market for boards over 12 feet.

You know, there are those who argue that the real problem in the world is rapid population growth. I myself am not a Zero Population Growth fan, but certainly there is an impact on the environment when population booms. (I know people who would give you a very hard time about having nine kids. Me, I have 4 kids so am equally “guilty” in their eyes…)

I also disagree that fossil fuels are going to run out. That’s a commonly held belief, but, e.g., massive beds of frozen natural gas have been found deep under the China Sea. There are clean resources that are uneconomic at the present time, but could readily be used in place of, eg. diesel fuel once new extraction techniques are developed. It’s all a matter of dollars…where I live we’ve made good progress in getting fleet vehicles (school bus, city bus, postal truck, etc) converted from diesel to natural gas. Helps the air quality quite a bit, too…

By the way, the world’s largest TDI factory is being built in China this year. You can’t use legislation in one country effectively if another country can simply use it to their trade advantage.

These globalization/population/pollution/world trade issues are tricky, no?

So, back to a better topic, how to build that 4 lb. wood shortboard?

Respectfully,

K

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Keith,

You can’t get out of the fact that TDI blanks are toxic to the atmosphere by implying that I have too many children! I thought that this was a surfing forum, I am not talking about cars, babies, or population. I am talking about surfboards. The fact is that the hole in the ozone layer is getting bigger every year and that TDI blown blanks are contributing to the problem. Surftech use MDI and so are a better alternative.

Roy

PS It will never be possible to sell my boards cheaply because they take so long to make. There are also a few surfers around who prefer heavier boards. A four pound long board is not ever going to be my cup of tea.

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Respectfully,

A $4,000 wood board ain’t exactly most peoples cup of Joe either. What percent of the TDI Products list do surfboards hold? A minute fraction of the other products produced from TDI.

Again Respectfully,

Zosurf.
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Howzit ZoSurf, thanks for your reply. The big prices on my boards are there because they take a long time to build and I don’t have much spare time after building boards for my crew. I am not really looking for boardbuilding contracts, but since I will occasionally do a board for someone else I just wanted it clear from the start what the score is. I have had so much pleasure from doing the boards that I want to encourage others to build them themselves. Materials costs can be just a few hundred bucks, and any old wood will do. The plans are also cheap or even free. I really believe in backyard boardbuilding, the fruits of your own labour and all that. Regarding the quantities of TDI, I don’t know. Perhaps Clark foam would like to tell us? It doesn’t really work to say that it is ok because someone else is producing more toxins than us.

Regards, Roy
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come on guys. In the auto industry these guys are talking about saving $.25 on a part that cost $10. If you are in the world of auto parts you could go under if you bid, and loose. You are talking about a pinple on the ass of a deer. No ones cares and no one knowes. Surf boards cost what they cost. We are not even in the same world at the auto folds. We are part of the sea so we care. That is what makes us diffenant.

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I have visited the secret graveyard in a cave where old surfboards go to die…it is not a pretty sight.