Private property?

Ambrose and I were having a discussion on using a stand-up paddle board amongst conventional surfers.

(I’ll let Ambrose speak for himself.)

My question is should the waves be open to all surf craft?

Granted, if I were surfing on a conventional board and some one paddled out on a 13’er I’d be bummed. But then I feel the same way about longboards, unless I’m on mine, or bodyboards, and “butt surfers”/kayaks.

I will never “welcome” some things, but does that give me the right to discriminate against it and call for segregation?

the unfortunaate reality of communicating on the private message circut alows one on one comunication and yet dis alows full context transcription of thought form writing such as I chose to construct.master aquafiend65 has chosen to digest my concern about general saftey breach when introducing another water craft ,perhaps outside its propper context ,into the 'shorebreak environment of Blackies in newport i.e. " I have had thoughts about paddling out at blackies on a super crowded day {pretty much every day] and sitting 30 yards outside and getting the pick of the litter.I promise not to do it more than once a month…also…master aquafiend 65 intimated that “you must understand that surfing is completely deviod of respect or social responsibility here in the OC”

neither of these comments spurred my primary communication on the private message yet they are reflections of a short sighted conceptual instant gratification mindset that is part and parcel of what contributes to the breakdown of the respect and social responsibility in the surfing community…

trigger words like discrimination,and segregation so vilified by the civil rights movement have no instant application in the water saftey concern.a 13foot board ,a kayak,a canoe have different parameters of safe opperating…Blackies has been surfed by competent generations of surfers and the thirteen foot paddle boards were best served up at the ol’corona del mar jetties and they had no fins…if some one paddles out on a 13foot board and gives an exacting demonstration of the appropriate use of said vehicle…bravo…if said opperator demonstrates pilot error to the detrement and injury of ? said board should be quarentined ,along with errored pilot…

so in this letter I respectfully answered in the private message sector I spent a great deal of time counseling on the possible ettiquite breach of #1 doing the 12’+ surfboard thing in a crowded circumstance to the endaangerment of others as well as#2 revealing the higher form to some not able to maturely approach the diciplines required of this venue which include not using it selfishly as just a wave catcher -hogger.but using it as an early morning reconisasce tool to survey the swell frequency ,water clarity,and of course a primary training tool…I spoke I believe of the legendary Tom Zahn paddling from balboa island to the santa ana river daily to paddle train[wthout a paddle per se ]…to run this great training resource into the ground over poor application practices of a shallow minded few.would be a crying shame…

A - me too hey watch this attitude-with the olo board is much like someone turning einstein’s work into a hydrogen bomb…with the benifits of this next dimension comes some grave responsibilities…be aware of them and use the benifits and accept the responsibilities for you are shaping your own surfing communities,the enforcer died.and the urchins at the beach are not gremmies they are trust funded progeny of doctors and lawyers thet have based their awareness on litigation…the Void of respect and social responsiility is youre doing or un doing partake of what and how you will…that guy in shakespere said it I heard it well after my friend Richard Barth died on his rogallo  hang glider after a three hundred foot fall…sow the tempest , reap the whirlwind…ambrose…in all my communications to master fiend I closed with an invitation to come paddle and see what I am speaking about as his 13’ concept board is still under construction…yet the respect post was the copy of my final priv com …

I have to agree with ambrose, How can anyone own a wave, I’d say anyone is welome to paddle out, on what ever they want as long as they act reposably, it is only when they are cusing unnessacary danger, disrispect to other water users, or in the case of larger craft being selfich with the waves. this all comes down to the attitude of the individual inquestion. diversity is the key to harmony, I would be happy to sit in a line up with a guy on a 13 ft paddleboard, a body surfer, cannon short board or what ever else they chose to ride.

Ambrose, I may be reading you wrong but it seems you feel betrayed that I divulged our PM, and you seem defensive. You fail to mention that I said I had “thoughts of taking it to blackies…” There is no sin in temptation. I was merely honest with you about a selfish desire. It is your heart devoid of such things? Well if it is, you are a better men than me…and everyone else. Not to justify it, but it stems from trying to go out and have a surf in a place I have frequented since 1979 only to get shut out because I am unable to launch airs, paddle around someone for position, or because I am really not a dick and will just paddle back in before I will try to empose myself on others. This post is not a betrayel of our PM but a resulting thought that you stirred in my head. I think, as many here are attempting to shape their own boards, to use in the surf, this is something for us to consider for the first time or remember again. And besides, shall I be villified because I hold a different view from you. Isn’t that why Einstiens ideas were “turned”? No my friend, I mean no harm to you or anyone.

Just a thought, I know of some non surfers who are afraid to go out into the surf because they have been hit by a conventional surfboard. would they prefer to see surfboards banned? Probably. it seems to me that what you are really suggesting is banning a bad/selfish attitude from the lineup. In which case you are agreeing with me. The surf community is a result of the community at large. Here in Orange County, it is mostly superficial. That is not to say that there aren't many great individuals out there, and I try to make a concerted effort to lighten things up and say hello when I paddle out. But the sad truth is many more act as if they are better than there brother and they could give a sh*t about you or if you have a good time out there. So the question of "private property" really goes to an attitude of the Heart, which is the intention that I had but I think you missed.

Like woody_wave rider was suggesting, I would prefer to to be the lone short boarder among 1000 13’ers if they were all cool dudes. I hope that I will be the first of the 1000.

P.s. does this mean I am no longer invited to come paddle?

Quote:

Ambrose and I were having a discussion on using a stand-up paddle board amongst conventional surfers.

(I’ll let Ambrose speak for himself.)

My question is should the waves be open to all surf craft?

Granted, if I were surfing on a conventional board and some one paddled out on a 13’er I’d be bummed. But then I feel the same way about longboards, unless I’m on mine, or bodyboards, and “butt surfers”/kayaks.

I will never “welcome” some things, but does that give me the right to discriminate against it and call for segregation?

Over the better part of the last year, I was dealing w/ my hip replacement pre-hab, and re-habilitation. My water activity options revolved around the 14’ paddleboard. Keeping my paddling together was one component that I was able to keep constant, but riding waves seemed less likely for the remaining months. After paddling by the beginners point so many times while paddling, I started to figure out what it would take to ride 8” of displacement hull through the point break, while riding prone. Most of the time it was uncrowded with small waves, all the while working toward better waves with more size. To keep this short, it became possible and very fun, riding from way outside any paddle surfers, and being able to cover a lot of ground much like a gun would, connecting all the section through to the inside down the beach. This worked out only under curtain crowd conditions. Mostly, people out surfing had never seen this before, so I got into a lot of Deer in the Headlights situations, so verbal communication became apparent. I didn’t feel comfortable staying there very long w/ a lot of people around. Once, over the late Spring, I rode Rincon on a 3’ to 5’ day while only a few surfers were out. While getting some GREAT rides, those guys would only allow so much before it was time to go in. Bottom line, you have to pick your time and place keeping safety in mind.

So far, the true intenet of my post has been missed.

Let me put it another way.

As designers and shapers and surfers, are we obligated to create, by our own hands “conventional” surf craft.

I would think that the likes of Simmons, Blake, and even Greenough, to name just a very few, would scoff at such an idea.

Granted a typical 13’er is by no means pushing the design/performance envelope, but who is to decide by what we measure performance? If the measure of performance is to not piss anybody off then we can all hang up our planers now and hope the chinese reduce the surfboard to a onesizefitsall molded. Shall we ban individuality, thought and exploration just so we don’t rile any feathers?

Perhaps a 13’er is not appropriate in Newport. But if that is the case I think it is because we lmay lack a wave conducive to it, and that is all. (of course there are times when it would be rediculously impossible to ride the thing, i.e. summer high season)

So then, are we as designers bound by a code of ethics and what is it? Thus far the conversation has been solely about our obligatin in the water, but what is our obligation in the shaping room, especially in regards to creatimg something for the waves?

I think, if you have to ask, you already know its ethically marginal.

Not really. The “code of ethics” for a designer is to create something(s) that benefit humanity/environment. But we both know that most of our boards are born of a narcisistic intent. Not that I am condemning that, but only asking if you shape and ride for your own personal pleasure, why shouldn’t everyone else? How can you judge anothers so called Selfish intent while really be guilty of the same? I am truly asking? I don’t claim to have the answer, I am trying to formulate one.

I wouldn’t lump everyone into an obligation. Take a look at Jensen; he’s one in a sea of many doing what resolves thinking freely

maybe listening will give you time to hear the answer…you are not here yet so I will put on my sox and levi’s and go work on a cabinet for my wife’s store or maybe jimmy’s 12’er…try think of a code of esthetics…ambrose…kilgore appoocalips new? have mercy? we owe a debt to our teachers,Kumu , to do them one better …everybody cryin’ merci and they dont know the meaning of the word…‘mose’… we shapers owe? whaddya mean we ,white man,‘tonto’ … Jay Silverheels would never have said that it was a joke

howdy, aquafriend65,

You have entered into the expanded thinkers club,

only a few people are there.


"

As designers and shapers and surfers, are we obligated to create, by our own hands “conventional” surf craft.

I would think that the likes of Simmons, Blake, and even Greenough, to name just a very few, would scoff at such an idea.

"


and Randy French is the more modern day “scoffer”, of the politics of “conventional” surf craft norms.

hope I stayed on point here.

of coarse you want to be safe/considerate to others, but I don’t think thats all you are talking about

Q:What is the norm?

A:normal

keep thinking

keep paddling

keep surfing

cperry

To quoto Henry James. There are three rules for living (and therefore for surfing as well).

  1. Be kind.

  2. Be kind.

  3. Be kind.

Quote:

{maybe listening will give you time to hear the answer} Maybe…But remember, you posed the original idea that certain things are appropriate or not. I’m only asking by what standard? I think it’s a fair question to ask of someone(s) who have shaped so many boards and even more important for us “newbie” shapers to wrestle with. I still come back to this question; Are you shaping and surfing boards for your own pleasure or is your life a living sacrifice intent on denying your own wants/needs to serve the surfing community by shaping what they require of you? Just asking! Anyways, I hope the cabinetry goes well.

I have an 11’ and a 12’ Skip Frye which I started riding a Rincrowd Ca. I first learned to ride them in uncrowded conditions with waves smaller than knee high, this was almost 10 years ago so now uncrowded is obsolete. When I decided that I had mastered the board to a certain degree I took it out in more crwded conditions. I endured the Queen Mary and CF number taunts and caught a few waves. I was always careful to sit ouy a few sets so as not to rile the crowd. I was quite successful in keeping the crowd from over-reacting most of the time but a few folks didn’t like my large boards. Oh, well. I have taken my boards north to SC and have heard nary a word regarding their length. I just enjoy the glide. I am also enjoying a mellow sense of Aloha that I was unable to achieve at Rincon. My take is that no matter what you ride you have to guage the conditions and not take too many waves if you are on a superior paddling vehicle. Paddle in peace.

Quote:

I wouldn’t lump everyone into an obligation. Take a look at Jensen; he’s one in a sea of many doing what resolves thinking freely

I’m really not trying to impose an obligation on anyone.

My point is am I under obligation to not use an unconventional or unwanted craft in the line-up?

If so then we need to start in the shaping room and not even create something that doesn’t belong out there.

But then it comes down to the question who’s waves are they anyways? Does everyone have a right to surf what they want?

Remember, we surfers are only a part of those who use the waves.

There is a story about a farmer who goes to the big city to hear the orchestra. He is seated next to a “sophisticted” man who often frequents the concerts. At the end of the concert Both are delighted. the farmer was enraptured with the simpler things but enjoyed it no less than The sophisticated mans appreciation of the complexities who enjoyed it no less than the farmer.

personally id take it to trestles when its 1-2’ an put two keel fins on each pin. imagine walking 13 feet of board.

i think the key would be to take it out for the first half hour of the day and get the waves when there no one out there. as a surfer/shaper you arent obligated to surf or shape within contemporary ideas, but i think as a surfer you have to respect the other guys and not detract from other peoples session to a certain extent. thats why i dont cut people off, dont hassle for waves, and dont sit way outside on my longboard when others are shortboarding. just cause others do it doesnt mean im going too, because fun at others expense isnt as good as the original.

if you are going to ride kayak/ski or a 13ft longboard its probably best to ride it in uncrowded conditions rather than paddling into a crowded line up. i regularly ride my 12’0’ on the outside sandbars at a couple of rivermouths. the sessions will usually include at least 2 ski/kayak riders.they are looking for the same thing as me - to ride a few small waves without 25 other surfers in the water.we get on fine, have a bit of a chat, share a couple of rides. they paddle off down the river with the tide and pull up at the long white sandy beach. not much happens down there, usually just a few fishermen and some wind surfers sitting around waiting for the breeze to pick up. they walk through the park past the families having picnics, put the kayaks on the car and go home. i paddle back in through the inside line up past the swimmers, sortboarders, longboarders, bodyboarders, lifegaurds patrolling on inflatable boats and waverunners and whatever other flotsam is floating in the water. walk through the completely full carpark, tie my board on the roof while 2 other cars wait for my spot. i often wonder which group has the right idea and which one has lost the plot.

I see what you all are saying. I agree with you as far as water etiquette.

I’ll try one more time to clarify. If no one gets it i’ll just drop it.

Ok, to start, once again I agree with you on water etiquette.

I’m talking about shaping room etiquette per se. After all thats where it starts, and we’re the ones making them, Right?

So then do we as designers/shapers have a responsibilty to shape surfcraft within the boundaries that are established in the water?

If so what are they. I’m not questioning from rebellion, but as one who is drawn to innovation and design.

And what would those who where/are pioneers in surfing say? Would they say f*ck it I’ll shape what I want and ride what I want where I want, or did they stop to consider if what they were doing might piss off somebody, and then sanitze it till it was “acceptable”? Somehow I can’t see most of them doing that, but perhaps I’m wrong!

excuse my lack of knowledge, butwhat is stand-up paddleboarding? do you have pics or webpages about that? thanks. jack

For what it’s worth, my opinion is that “obligations” are taken on by an individual according to his/her own values, and not assigned by others, otherwise they are not really obligations because obligations require commitment. Obligations do not require permission.

Creating a particular board is one kind of need. Using it is another. It is human nature to find a reason to use what we invent or create. If one looks hard enough, a “good” reason can always be found, no matter what others may advise.

Obligations are “private property.”