Hi Skip, My thoughts from awhile back to now has changed alittle with more boards under my belt. Your front measurement of 11 1/2" is good, but the 1" off the rail I don't perfer in my type of surf. 1" off the rail is a common number for Hawaii and some other lined up areas of the world. I perfer 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" off the rail. This is a better balance point where CANT adjustment comes into play. The rear box postion could be pushed you to 6.50" which with forward and back adjustment you will find the spot, I have found that your number 5.31" is limited to larger surf and to stiff in surf under 6 ft. and at most beach breaks. The rear boxes should be place the same off the rail as the front boxes along with the rear toe the same as the front, in a Quad world this seems to perform the best with least amount of limitataions. Toe numbers could go 1/16" more to help the quad cluster be more responsive. Hope this helps my friend and enjoy your board.
Hi Skip, My thoughts from awhile back to now has changed alittle with more boards under my belt. Your front measurement of 11 1/2" is good, but the 1" off the rail I don't perfer in my type of surf. 1" off the rail is a common number for Hawaii and some other lined up areas of the world. I perfer 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" off the rail. This is a better balance point where CANT adjustment comes into play. The rear box postion could be pushed you to 6.50" which with forward and back adjustment you will find the spot, I have found that your number 5.31" is limited to larger surf and to stiff in surf under 6 ft. and at most beach breaks. The rear boxes should be place the same off the rail as the front boxes along with the rear toe the same as the front, in a Quad world this seems to perform the best with least amount of limitataions. Toe numbers could go 1/16" more to help the quad cluster be more responsive. Hope this helps my friend and enjoy your board.
I'm going to throw out some numbers and would like you to tell me if it's in the right direction.
Front fins: 11.5" from the tail and 1.25" from the rail.
Rear fins: 6.5" from the tail and 1.25" from the rail.
Both will be toed in at .125" or 1/8th.
I do have some question pertaining to your recommendations;
1 - What is your theory/thoughts behind having front and rear fins the same distance from the rail ??
2 - The reason for having front and rear fins with the same toe-in ??
3 - Pushing the rear fins forward to 6.5" from the tail makes sense to help loosen up the board, but doesn't having the fins this close together affect their performance ??
4 - Problems with having front and rear fins with different toe-in dimensions ??
5 - Pushing the front fins foward to 11.5" as opposed to 11.3125" ??
6 - Anything else you would like to mention, discuss or bring attention to.
Please don't mind me asking this many questions, I's just picking your brain for information...
Sorry to jump in here and stir things up but I totally disagree with your statement about 1" off the rail only being for Hawaii or lined up surf, my experience with a lot of boards that are 1" off the rail is that this is just not true. For me on my boards 1" off the rail seems to work fine in everything from max Hawaiian surf to small beach breaks. But the problem that I have with this discussion of how far to place the fins from the rail, is that you cannot talk about how far to place them from the rail until you talk about what template you are using.
My experience shows that the further from the rail you place the fin, the more fin you need, so I like to keep them close to the rail so I can get away with the LEAST amount of fin for less drag and more speed.
I never do any of my quads with the same toe-in on both fins, especially if the fins are close together, I find they work a lot better with 1/16" less toe-in on the back fin. The reasoning behind this is that the front fin causes the water flow to change on the back fin such that it does not need as much angle of attack as the front fin. All my quads are done this way and it does not appear to hurt them in anyway, and compared to the ones that I tried with the same toe-in felt a lot better and more importantly faster!
Another thing that has to be considered is what the rail and bottom shape is like where the fins are being placed, if the rails are very soft then they might very well have to be moved in further from the rail. All my rails are extremely hard where the fins are located so I can place them out closer to the rail.
Now I'm really confused so I'll ask you for some advise. Rails are hard up 20" and its a flat bottom. Approximately 4 1/2" nose rocker and 2 1/2" tail rocker. Board dimensions are as follows: 6'6"x13.25x20x14x2.5.
With that being said I am considering placing the front fins 11 5/16" from the tail and 1" off the rail w/ 1/4" toe-in. Rear fins will be 6 5/16" from the tail and 1 3/4" off the rail w/ 1/8" toe-in.
For a board with those dimensions I would put the front fins at 11 7/8" from the tail, and the back fins at 7". My recommendation would be to put both fins 1" in from the rail and change the back toe-in to 3/16", front toe-in of 1/4" is good. With a flat bottom I would use 8 degree cant in the front and 6 degree in the back. If it is a squashtail with a very straight outline in the tail then I might consider moving the back fins in an 1/8" but I still think 1" from the rail is the way to go.
Hi Skip, Nice to have Robin come in with some input. I will post 2 pics of a board by Barry Vandermeulen that should help you and others pick what works for you the best.
1st pic is how the board came with rear fins set in off the rail. The owner of this board said it was good front side and down the line, but hard to cut back and ride back side. 2nd pic shows rear fins out and running the same has front fins. Now the owner of this board said the board was easy to ride back side and make cut backs without loosing any of the front side positive features. Hope this with hand shapers thoughts help you in setting your ProBoxes to your liking. Mahalo,Larry
i've taken fin placement advice from both Robin and Larry. both really know their stuff and i'm sure you couldn't go wrong listening to either. or
blending the 2. i've been really happy with the quad placements that both have given me in the past...
on another note, i have recently been playing with the cant inserts in my quad shortboard. i went from 6* front and 4* rear to 8* front and 6* rear.
night and day difference. it was like flipping a switch. board went from kinda stiff and tracky to loose but still drivey and faaast... i've also played with the fore
aft positions extensively and seem to like my fins more spread out... my point being that, for me, adjustability is crucial with my quad... this is for up
to head and a half beachbreak. sometimes mushy, sometimes hollow... now that i've surfed the 6/4 cants for a while, and know how it goes, i want to try 8front
and 4rear and maybe even lower on the rear to see how that feels...
What is the reasoning behind pushing the fins further forward ?? Is it due to the length of the board or general shape ?? Does this fin position make the board more manuverable ??
Hi Skip, Nice to have Robin come in with some input. I will post 2 pics of a board by Barry Vandermeulen that should help you and others pick what works for you the best.
1st pic is how the board came with rear fins set in off the rail. The owner of this board said it was good front side and down the line, but hard to cut back and ride back side. 2nd pic shows rear fins out and running the same has front fins. Now the owner of this board said the board was easy to ride back side and make cut backs without loosing any of the front side positive features. Hope this with hand shapers thoughts help you in setting your ProBoxes to your liking. Mahalo,Larry
Yes, it will make the board maneuverable, with tighter turns. I gave you these measurements because I have tested this placement on a large number of boards from 5’ 11" to 6’ 7", fishes to rounded pintails like your board and it has been a magic layout for all of them, and after looking at your board I think it will work really well on it as well. Of course the one caveat that I always tell people when dealing with layout numbers, the fin templates and sizes can have a huge positive or negative impact on the whole thing. Typically, when I do my fin layouts I have already got the fins in mind that I plan on using. But the numbers I have given you have proven to work well with a wide range of templates.
Yes, it will make the board maneuverable, with tighter turns. I gave you these measurements because I have tested this placement on a large number of boards from 5' 11" to 6' 7", fishes to rounded pintails like your board and it has been a magic layout for all of them, and after looking at your board I think it will work really well on it as well. Of course the one caveat that I always tell people when dealing with layout numbers, the fin templates and sizes can have a huge positive or negative impact on the whole thing. Typically, when I do my fin layouts I have already got the fins in mind that I plan on using. But the numbers I have given you have proven to work well with a wide range of templates.
Let me know if you have any additional questions.
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Thank you for your insight. I'll give a report when I take it out for its first test run.
What is the reasoning behind pushing the fins further forward ?? Is it due to the length of the board or general shape ?? Does this fin position make the board more manuverable ??
Thanks, Skip ....
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Hello Shaka Bro....Love me or Hate me...I don't care....I'm a big pro Box fan....
I built a surfboard ,asked for numbers...Placed the fins per two top name Sway's members.......The board sucked......
Well...... it sucked for me...I don't surf at that level.....8 months later I modified the board....works good now..for me...not mainstream.....Be careful what you ask for..............
I just got a interesting PM....Maybe I need to slow down a little...It all started out with ding repair...One day I met this guy at the beach named Ben Shipman....The rest is history.....He told me from day one that I needed to learn how to place my own fins...I glassed some boards for him...the fin placement was always marked on the foam....
On my boards I'd be on the phone calling Ben asking where do the fins go....
Ben's gone...now I'm on my own.....
I asked for help on Swaylock's but I gave bad information to the people that wanted to help me.
How you surf , where you surf ,how long you've surfed...ect...What's your current set up....
I was given good numbers by good people but my input was wrong.....I modified the board to work for me...I'm happy.....
Well I'm glad to say it worked good, and I'm only saying good because the surf wasn't that good, but it still turned on a dime when I wanted it to and it didn't do anything weird, yet.. I'm going to keep these dimensions in my arsenal.. Thanks to all for your input and may the surf be with you ....
