Proto calls with respect to this board could be imoproved. This forem is a great tool to exchange information. In that respect it does very well. However the pointless negative noise is a pain to weed through. Perhaps the host of this site should eliminate anonymus posts. This would by nature weed out the cowardly and encougage credible information to be offered and exchanged. This would really increase the value of the board for all participants. This might encourage more particiation from experts in their resective fields. As for pomotion of a product for sale that also degrades the site. If there is a legitimate question of where to get something or about the quality of a particular item, then cool. Then again the inane can be entertaining sometimes, but at what cost to the vaule of this exchange forem?
Stan - After the site was mentioned in a magazine or two it seems volume picked up and crank posts as well. I hear what you’re saying but finding plenty of good stuff amongst the cranks.
I Love Newbalonie … have fun
Stan, why not just start your own board?
I agree with you on all of your points. Best bet in my opinion is just to IGNORE THE IDIOTS who post non-Swaylocks-worthy stuff. Any response just encourages them. But everybody seems to feel compelled to answer back, and that’s why there so much traffic on the useless topics. As far as self-promotion, Mike Paler, who runs this site, has said that he doesn’t object to users promoting their goods, so if that’s how he feels, I for one won’t argue with him… although I agree that less of it would be great!
Patience Stan P. As was said…until Swaylocks got exposure the cranks were limited to a very rare ‘now and then’. Since then the cranks have been a bit of a pain but it should mellow out again. We are just not cool enough to keep the attention of the worms for long. It’ll be back to normality as the hoopla wanes. A number of folks have also directed others here from other ‘less reasonable’ forums when trying to help them get real info. Worms follow. Can’t help it much on the web. That’s what I don’t like, and what I do like, about the web. It’s basically a free-for-all. The amount of real info here will win in the end and all the worms will dry up or find dirt to hide in.
Stan, First off, welcome to Swaylock’s. It’s indeed an honor to have you in our midst reading and contributing. I take your comments seriously. That was a loaded critique and one that is a bit more complex than you may realize. First off, I agree that the pointless, negative clatter that occasionally visits this forum is a REAL DRAG. What you may not understand is that this is nothing new. I started Swaylock’s in 1999. I’ve worked many, MANY hours to grow this thing. When insecure people come in here and clang their bells it really pisses me off. Most of the time, I let it pass. If you ignore idiots, they usually go away. If you reply to them, they stick around. Sometimes I’ll can a thread. But that can get old and frustrating. But what can I do? If I were to monitor each thread and delete the bad ones, I’d have to quit my day job. On top of that, I’d constantly be forced to make difficult decisions as to whether to let a thread continue or not. If I started moderating too aggressively, it would become too much about me and not enough about the Swaylock’s community. Plus a certain amount of argument is good. There is ALOT of passion in the medium of designing, building, marketing, selling and riding surfcraft. It isn’t just a sport or a business – it’s a lifestyle, a culture, a religion. There are many personalities and egos. Some have alot of perspective, some not so much. Somehow, I’ve tapped into that flux, and given it a consiousness and a mirror. As we move forward I’m tasked with figuring out how to keep it all cool. Swaylock’s is growing. More people are visiting. There’s fourteen new resources waiting in the bin. Articles in the trades. I really like your vision of a more professional board that is visited by experts and amateurs alike. But Swaylock’s must retain it’s original, soulful, egalitarian vibe. (Did you know that we’re having the 1st annual Swayloholic Meeting (S.A.) Sept 5-7 in Big Sur? see this link for more info: http://www.swaylocks.com/cgi-bin/discussion/archive.cgi?review=34293) So this brings me to your word PROTOCOL. I like that word. So here’s my new vision of growth. I think the discussion forum needs to be broken up into categories. Each of these categories needs to have a volunteer moderator who will enforce the PROTOCOL and keep that section cool. And that, my friends, brings me to the next big questions: What are the categories, who wants to volunteer, and what is the SWAYLOCK’S PROTOCOL? S
Stan has a valid point. He participates with more regularly on another discussion board where everyone behaves more gentlemanly. Probably less egos in that pursuit. Personally, I don’t mind the mild promotion. Don’t mind the personal confrontations as long as they are quickly resolved in a polite manner. Swaylocks has lost a great contributor, Paul Gross, due to personal attacks. I do think it is good for people to use their real name or at least stick to one user name. That will reduce the gibberish and noise. Perhaps a tighter registration process is necessary. I dont think creating subject related fifedoms allow for complete expression or even be a great format for tracking topics. A useful enhancement would be a button that converts a discussion thread into a more easily printed or copied without a lot of formatting. Or perhaps searches by author. Thread hits were a neat thing to see. A spellchecker would be priceless. Just my $0.02. Rob Olliges
How about using color coding for topics, but still leaving them all in one forum? Is that possible? Then have a check box for each post so that the person who places it can identify it as a shaping question, glassing question, tools, design, request for help, history/surf culture, or “other”? Just a thought… I don’t mind using my full name…
Dear Swaylock, Can I just say that if it wasnt for this fantastic wealth of information I wouldnt have been so willing to go and shape my first board. I owe all the regulars thanks for their help. I dont mind self filtering of the crap for golden nuggets that answer ponderings that have troubled me for ages. Thanks
As Anthony said - There are many of us out here who probably would not still spend weekends and our free moments covered in foam dust, or pealing dried resin off there skin, if it wasn’t for this site, and the help and guidance that it has provided. But in between new projects and calls for help, Swaylocks also offers relief from that urge to shape when we cannot, or when you just want to kill some boredom with some surf-related antidotal information. Flaming and Spam are an inherent part of internet boards, and will be so long as people are allowed to speak there minds; Sometimes trying to control something reckless only makes it worse. Certainly it gets out of hands at times – and I’m willing to bet that more often than not it is when the other posts are in a lull. I’ve spent a fair amount of time combing through the archives, and although I’m still a rook, I’ve been around here long enough to know that a large majority of the discussions are recycled over and over. Lets face it, there are only so many questions one can ask, and so long as beginners are welcomed here, they will surface again. Repetitive questions and Obnoxious posts - I think this is a way to fill the gaps. There are times when people should have checked the archives – but they didn’t, oh well. The Veterans are sick of answering the same old questions, but it gives us armatures a chance to show what we’ve learned. Obnoxious posts, I don’t know there is a reasonable solution to completely expel them, though I don’t think they need to be eradicated, just managed. As everyone has said before, ignore them, and they usually go away. If people use relevant titles to their posts, than it is easy to sort through the flotsam. I like scrolling though all that’s been added since my last log in, and if the forum was divided I’m sure I would miss some posts that I would have otherwise seen. Sometime you stumble across some valuable information in the most obscure places. Just my opinion, I’m sure that what ever you do, or don’t, will be fine. Thanks Mike, for providing such a great place to exchange information.
Mike, You asked! Forgive length of this thesis but please consider my thoughts. Breaking the site into categories will do nothing to improve the site except lighten your load by adding moderators. I play guitar and used to frequent Harmony Central’s guitar bb. At first there was a single category and it was exciting, informative and entertaining. The trolls and pranksters eventually ran it over and things got quite unpleasant. So they broke it into several categories including a “beginners board”, “senior members”, “gear” and “open” all with muliple moderators…a recent visit showed the trolls and pranksters posting on all the boards (cut and paste) and wandering, off topic discussions everywhere. Instead of wading through a single site to find interesting discussions, now you have to wander through 5. I’ve only been here a year or so, but I have enjoyed and learned tremendously about subjects I had absolutely no interest in until I came here: glassing, how to baste my laps, surfmats, and fin adjustments. If these items had been buried in different bbs, I know I would have missed an awful lot. Add moderators but don’t add multiple bbs…please! The trolls and pranksters come and go (me thinks many are the same individuals… only you know for sure) and are best handled by ignoring them (although some of the smacking is pretty funny). You know, the longest, most passionate threads are not about new foam options or v’s vs concaves. They are the merry (and not so merry) pranksters pulling on some of the capes here. Tighten up the registration as has been mentioned. Perhaps post e-mail addresses or a variation of that. Annonamous posts have their place. I am guilty but most if not all have been in a humorous vein and the name relates to the message. (One appears to have eliminated a serial smacker) But I would not miss them if you outlawed them. Perhaps with a moderator they could be left to the worthy to use… Hucksters come and go…Oooooo a whole two weeks of T. Emmerson. So what. Let them come, ignore them if you like. There is a fine line between propaganda and information. Are Rich Sanders, Greg Loehr and Dale Solomonson that far from T. E.? Yes, but that is only because they have a lot more to say than "buy my revolutionary vehicle/resin. If T.E. and the like take up too much memory in archives because of their useless bs, then off him there, not on the bb. I would love to have more of Stan P. Doug Haut, P. Gross, G. Liddle, C. Stecyk and others post here, but its kinda up to them. What seems to happen is that they are inundated with lame questions when they first appear. They burn out and bail. Greg Loehr, Tom D. and Jim Phillips are great examples of how hanging around until the novelty wears off results in (to me anyway) a real nice symbiotic relationship between the masters and their apprentices. I hope Stan hangs around and drops by now and then just like Greg, Tom and Jim do. Mike, I think fine tuning is in order, not a wholesale change. If the vision is to create a serious design forum only, I think you only have to make e-mail addresses known and add moderators to rein-in discussion outlaws. The price is that a little fun and freedom will be lost. As Slim Railpickens would say, “Gentlemen, thank you for your attention” Newbs PS Oh yeah, since Coral has dropped the ball, spell chekc pleeze!!!
Sorry Mike but one more thing…last weekend I spent some time with a couple of Swaylock users. They loved the information available but did comment on the “drama” discussions. I’ve got a solution but it may be labor intensive: The archives should be informational only. No bs, no funny trolls or off- topic stuff. Categorize the archives not the bb. Just pick a date to start and go. Leave the existing archives the way they are but new stuff should be better organized…I’d be happy to offer my time in about 10 years. Can ya wait?
Welcome Stan.I have been around for a while and this stuff pops up now and then.Just ignore the fools and they usually go away.There are a lot of good heads around this site some are just watching and will jump in when it gets interesting.I am somewhat like you (although more primative) and I enjoy making tools,jigs,stands etc.Sometimes I will have an off the wall question and am amazed at some of the stuff these guys come up with.Now…how about designing some kind of swivel electrical connection to end cord twist forever. R. Brucker
Mike: I agree! take the best and leave the rest. The way this problem has been solved on other boards is when you post it also posts your address. This eliminates the cranks reduces the work of the host to keep it clean and puts people in touch directly. Actually it is an option to post your address. The other thing is a simple rule for deleting posts, is if it is negative/inane ditch it. It works on other boards and if the host donesn’t get to it real quick the other guys will soon learn to ingnore the BS and the crank will go jerk off some where else. Just some thoughts to try to make this thing be what it has almost, achived. A clean site with positive stuff would really be refreshing thing in this venue. Mike I can send you to a site that is run with outstanding precsion with respect to the issue we are discussing. It has nothing to do with surfing but could be an outstanding example for a direction if you think that is called for. In any case you do a great job. The sifting is a bit punishing though. Keep refineing your art it is totally cool and good for everybody the sport and the industry. My hat is off to you.
IGNORE THEM AND THEY WILL GO AWAY. Simple directions. Obviously hard to follow. The onus of censorship is on each individual user. There’s a list of Swaylocks users, both regulars and newcomers whose messages I’ve learned not to open. Telling the annoying users to “Go Away” doesn’t help. It’s like they left a flaming bag of dog shit on your doorstep and all you’re doing is stomping it out for them. Just close the door. It’s not easy to bite your lip when something really chaps your hide. You wouldn’t believe the number of times that I’ve typed out extremely satisfying responses to some of these idiot’s messages only to pause, take a deep breath and painfully delete the whole thing. Registration might help. Then again, it might make contributing to Swaylocks too much of a hassle for some great shaper who’s just not all that interested in computers. The bulletin board at Surfer Magazine requires it’s users to register. Been there lately? IGNORE THEM AND THEY WILL GO AWAY. That’s the answer. If you’re not following these directions, you’re perpetuating the problem.
Regarding the restoration of a 9’6" Skip Frye that I bought from my friend Tom, at The Longboard Grotto (where obviously a few people took some things the wrong way… especially the misunderstanding about me being “proud to work the shop owner” on the price which was not the case at all). I was trying to get some positive advise from fellow designers of the craft, and ended up getting a bunch of negative BS from people who are afraid to even leave their names. They sit at home thinking of ways to be negative instead of trying to be Christian about it and help out the people who are really serious about this forum. If you can’t use it for what it was intended, then by all means, don’t use it. God Bless, David Falkenau San Diego, CA P.S. - Stan, if you are reading this, how can I purchase some of your hand shaping tools, calipers, and plexiglass square with the 30, 40, 60 angles and the 12" center and 12" out rule? I was really digging on them at Skip’s today and he seemed pretty stoked with them.
I’ve been participating in internet forums and discussion groups in one way or another for a while now (1992 was my first internet experience) and I’d say that 100% of the time when a forum begins to reqire folks to register before participating, the signal/noise ratio increases greatly, with very little loss of participants. Just the time it takes to fill out a simple form will dissuade all but the most dedicated cranks and griefers, and the remaining ones can be dealt with. Of course, I don’t know if adding this feature to Swaylocks as it currently is configured is a trivial thing or not, and it would also bring a bit more administration, but again, I’ve found that the quality of an online place only goes up with some kind of simple registration scheme.
swaylock should make each have one sign in name and if a person continues to post crap their IP address could be banned.
lots of suggestions out there. i guess i am adding to them. i do not think posting e-mail addys is a good idea, in a word…SPAM. i do not like getting daily e-mails on septic cleaner services, and these are the “cleanest” spams i get. talk about annoying! programs out there will find posted e-mail addys and sell/spam them. i post under different names at times…i think we all do. i also think that many know who the posters are just by the words and grammer etc. most are quite funny, some stir it up… my suggestion…leave the site as is. it is great. nothing will please everyone everytime and the more you try to control and police people the more they will try to get around it. stan…are the posts that bad? to be honest EVERYTHING i have read about you posted here is positive…REALLY positive. what is the underlying reason for this desire for protocols etc?