Pssst, Greg. Bert. Got a question

Infrared flash cure?

Any thoughts?

Been doing some reading with my old chem textbook handy…

http://www.bccresearch.com/archive/C026N.html

http://www.mgc-a.com/chemical/bacformulation.html

article 1 -

microwaves will work, but think about setting up a microwave system large enough to fit a board in…I’ve used microwave reactors for small molecule synthesis; in some cases almost miraculous; in others, not so hot. They’d work great for curing epoxies; only the resin would heat up. size limitation and building an “oven” with no dead/hot spots (where the microwaves cancel/amplify one another) would be an engineering nightmare.

IR oven would be more easily conceived, but would work better for light initiated radical reactions (like UV poly) with a specifically tuned initiator that works with IR (but not UV…you could lam outside!) rather than epoxy; don’t imagine that there would be very good energy transfer from the wave to the reactive components.

article 2 -man…there are SOOOO many di-amines available that it’s silly. It all comes down to how long you can invest time in researching them on their own, in combination with other diamines, as epoxy adducts…and finally, what they cost. I’m sure there would be amines out there that would have 0 colour, super fast cures, low viscosities and the like…but you would pay 10x as much for them. Big difference between BAC and the IPD is some methyl groups on the ring; these take up more physical space, keeping the specific gravity (density) of the resin lower…not really surprising that BAC provides a faster/harder material…but it’ll be more dense. Formulating epoxy with benzyl alcohol? Yikes…now we’re talking irritant.

Seems like we are doing here is so low tech compared to what must available at Los Almos, Livermore and any other DOD encrusted secret weapons manufacturing lab…

There must be materials and processes that are available for general public knowledge that could be used to create a “super board” kind of makes you wonder. Even this autoclave vacuum forming stuff must be prehistoric to what the DOD can muster with the billions they spend on “what if” projects…

Exotic internally framed structures filled with some type of viscious liquid or gas would seem to eliminate the whole need for any type of foam. Just build your shell out of some magnesium/titanium/kevlar sandwich under 10,000 pounds of pressure and seal your viscous core with it. Put in a bunch of heat and pressure sensitive layers and build yourself a “smart” skinned vehicle that responds as required. Who need resins and the stuff we use today.

If they can build a smart jet powered cruise missle that can intelligently respond to changes in terrain to hit it’s final target. Or heat/radar seeking missles that chase down the fastest plane. Why can’t you build the same in a water vehicle.

With the unbelievable popularity that tow-in surfing has gained in this short span of time I’m wondering when we’ll eventually get rid of the ski altogethor. Perhaps some type of powered launch vehicle you deattach from and match with later as it tracks you down electronically and picks you up when the ride is over.

This stuffs not that far off… I thonk Bert and Greg’s just working on the meat and potatoes solution. The esoteric stuffs gonna come from non-surfing geeks somewhere.

Find the material that can electromagnetically or chemically extract the energy harnessed in an ocean wave and translate that to propulsion on a highly manuverable water platform. A hydrogen instant power converter of sorts. The same technology can be used to extract wave energy to provide clean electricity. There’s bright minds somewhere working on this problem to solve this same problem.

Makes you wonder…

One,

Few months back saw a history / dicovery type program showing how the turbine blades for the Airbus were made by blowing air into moulten titanium while in a mold. End result was an 8’ blade that a single guy lifted easily.

the first link , really had me excited …

then i found , that it was just a teaser and you had to buy the hard copy …

the second link was looking promising , but from my limited experience in this area , it looked more like a curing system for an automotive 2 pack …

because some of the properties on the data sheet implied it was alot more flexible …

almost rubbery …

great white north had some interesting comments …

its fair to say that the microwave option could be a little complicated …

but the radiant and infrared systems , could be alot more doable …

most of that stuff is already being done by fairly simple means anyway …

i see that article was dated back to 91 , so a lot has changed since then anyway …

im putting bets on the closed room , gas exposure system …

spray coat on the foam , and the gas starts the polymerisation process on the outer surface , creating a hard non stick outer skin with the inner ungased portion creating the bond to foam …

i couldnt think of a simpler way …

great white north ?? ring a bell in your field ??

regards

BERT

I am ignorant in all the stuff you guys are doing, but has any considered using this in their construction?

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/tech/aerogel.html

I’ll happily divulge my shortcomings…synthetic chemist by day, mountain biker/snowboarder/dreaming of surf by night. Never been a materials engineer…have made batches of PE resin on the ton scale though. I’m not really familiar with alot of the finer industrial processes that go on for composite manufacture. I HAVE seen alot of guys blast molds full of gun roving and cheap polyester to make truck canopies, waterslides, bathtubs…you name it. Low grade stuff.

As far as your “gas chamber” idea, it’s not a bad one…the question is, how do you get the amines (the gas) in to the air…and what benefit is it to have the hard outer shell…except possibly to prevent sag? Ammonia would be easy, but it’s a lousy curing agent for epoxies. Good luck getting your hands on large quantites of methylamine (the Hells Angels have tried…), which is your other ambient pressure highly volatile amine…oh yeah; AND it’ll cost ya.

I still think that pre-pregs haven’t been completely investigated. I remember when some friends of mine that were making snowboards made the switch from hand lay-up to pre-preg…the boards improved SO dramatically. Cut your prepreg of the appropriate density and thickness, slap it down with some resin that has more “glue” like properties rather than “structural”…(here’s the part no one likes)…pop it in a heated mold (ouch) with some pressure and after an hour or two you’re laughing.

Still strikes me that really, the way polyurethane cores are made has SO many things going for it, as far as material structure; density is where you need it (at the deck), blanks are relatively close tolerance so it’s easy to crank out the finished shape, rockerlines, deck contours…everything…can all be done in the mold. Totally reproducible. Problem is that PU is a lousy material with no memory…

So…I think there are some trade-offs; if you want a lump of material that you can hack up any which way, in to any size/shape board, then I think you’re going to be limited with regards to where the core density is distributed, but a good composite will account for this (way to go Bert!). If you’re prepared to build molds to make your cores in, you’re going to be able to use a vastly larger number of materials to construct them out of…akin to what waahoo mentioned with the turbine blades.

Too funny…I’m looking for who posted about the airbus thing, go back and check the thread and garagedweller posts about exactly what I was going to talk about…Blow aerogel into a mold, somehow engineering your process so that it’s more dense at the deck and rails; add spars and stringers, akin to wing manufacture, infuse with epoxy, again in a controlled distribution and look out; you’ll have the core of cores. Problem is it’ll run you minimum 30G+ to tool up, another 30G+ in process R&D and each core will prolly cost you 500$ to produce.

I say let’s hijack the Clark factory and make them use some better materials ;). Maybe it’ll happen.

Books say IR no worky for epoxy; epoxies absorb at around 1250 cm-1, 950-810 cm-1 and 840-750 cm-1; all very low energy wavelengths. Sigh. Really, when you look at the laws of thermodynamics, the only way to speed up an addition reaction is to heat it, or use something else that is more reactive.

Bleak? Nah…the core is what comes next; the composite skin thing works well; let’s get on the cores.

(opinions only…again, not my game; anyone tried an electric blanket over their vacuum bag instead of heating the whole damn room, or a pre-vac with no glass and low viscosity resin on the deck to get the deck density up?..I’m sure there’s an Aussie that has.)

You guys talking about stuff like this??

http://www.demandproducts.com/liquidrock.html

http://www.demandproducts.com/pdf/info_liquidrock.pdf

http://www.demandproducts.com/adhesive.html

http://www.industrialpolymers.com/styrospray.html

http://www.industrialpolymers.com/StyroSpray715instructionmaster.pdf

Pssst,

I hear that the Chinese are using GIANT MAGNETS to line up all the little atomic critters. Incredible strength gains, pass it on… Just don’t wear your Texalium underoos in the shop.

Most if not all military stuff is composite construction that we can only fantasize about. Gas bags?

I think a composite core would be more than suitable for our needs. Gregs idea and if Clark wakes up and whatever styro/? matrix some wacko gets to work.

I hear that the Chinese are using GIANT MAGNETS to line up all the little atomic critters. Incredible strength gains, pass it on… Just don’t wear your Texalium underoos in the shop.

LOL!!!

Actually texalium underoos would be ok…ferrite-oos wouldn’t…

im in favor of no core at all or partial core…

whenever there’s talk of molding (rotational molding is quite interesting) you’re gonna have to lay out some serious capital…

…for surfboards?

Sounds risky…but hey there’s that startup in Cali making those polycarb thingies…they’ve laid out some serious mula…we’ll see what happens.

I work R&D for various Gov agencies in Aerospace. There is a reason the Gov spends billions on this stuff. The materials and the processes used to fabricate most of them are too expensive. I sit around and dream of what I could do with some of this stuff, but when it comes down to it, who is going to buy a $5-10K board. It all seems cost prohibative right now.

Binge and Purge… Rape me.

Health care costs for not getting our brothers out of the polyester sweat shops - Billions?

Recreating Hobie’s brainchildren over and over and… boring.

If there’s more than one way to skin the cat isn’t there more than one way to core a cat?

5 - 10k? Why I oughta…

There isn’t much lighter than air. It might not be a bad idea to take a second look at the S-core. It’s drawbacks certainly could be addressed with existing materials and technologies.

I think Hydroepic/Pope has a better take on aircore boards than Solomon.

Too bad they don’t have the bucks Solomon has though.

I think Bert and Hydroepic’s autoclaved composite sandwich shell is the start

Getting a viscous supporting core that doesn’t break down over time is where air would work.

Maybe some super light EPS surrounded by a blanket of insulating Aerogel and a composite sandwich shell of heat and autoclaved formed epoxy-magnesium/titanium-carbon fiber would work. Or a autoclaved formed shell of Epoxy-Bamboo-kevlar. If you read how Aerogel was created… makes you think they could do something similar with metal molecules to make it light, strong and flexible for the skin

1# density EPS is about as close to no-core as I need to get…It would be air, but this is easier :slight_smile:

Waitaminute. Ammonia is a curing agent for epoxy? Ammonia is why I had an organic vapor respirator. Ammonia fumes make white oak change color beautifully, dramatically, and permanently. I’ve used gallons of the industrial-strength stuff building furniture. Its available at any blueprint shop.

What if I just poured a bit into a shallow pan (glass pie pans are the best) and set it under my boards as they went off. Faster cure? I’ve got knockdown fuming tents for all kinds of sizes of furniture…hmmm, why build an insulated oven. My fuming tents (1x1 wood with hinges & pins and ploy sheeting over the top) with a spaceheater & a pan of ammonia inside?

Would the ammonia smell linger in the glass? I seal it on oak with 2-3 coats of Deft. Nobody wants a $2K Craftsman-style bench to smell like their cat pissed on it. Would a hotcoat take care of that? Am I getting ahead of myself here? I know you already said its a lousy curing agent, but what if it was an additional curing agent? Would I have to reduce the hardener amount in the mix?

Sorry, Bert, I should have looked at the article dates. I did see that the first was only a contents page, but I hoped you all might recognize stuff just by the topic names. Thanks for taking a look…

Check Ken out… He’ll be kicking some poly ass.

http://www.segwaycomposites.com

Hmmm… Cat piss???

GN said that Ammonia is a lousy curing agent for epoxy,

BUT just think of the new “Da Cat” model.

Are you squeezing the cat again, dear? Just give me 50 cc’s, ya damn hairball…

kenz that s-core has never left my brain…thats why i said partial core…

daddio, youre friggin killin me dude!

hey trustewar…so you work for gov agencies huh?

you got windows where you work?

cuz your mug is awfully white man…GET SOME SUN!!!

And watup with that crazy mug?

Looks like your balls sat on some ice…

I got samples of Aerogel and gave it to Greg. I figured if anyone is going to have an idea it’s him. He’s about 15 years out in front.