Quad board refinement

General Discussion
1

I’ve only just recently started making 4 & 5 finned boards all using the mckee formula. I’ve found them positive in the drive department but a bit stiff, (even with small fins), compared to my three fin designs. I’ve been using my standard thruster rocker templates and outlines for these boards. I was thinking of putting a bit more tail rocker in and maybe moving the rear fins closer to the rail as my first refinements. I’ve noticed on some quads the rear fins are the same distance off the rail as the front set with similar cant.

Has anybody out there in swaylock land got any comments or other ideas on rockers, bottom shapes, fin placement etc that work good on quads.

2

Can you provide a diagram, or photos of your setup. I’m unfamiliar with ‘‘the McKee formula’’, that you referenced. Can you fill me in , please?

3

I’m not a big fan of the McKee set up, especially in Fl conditions. If you wanna loosen it up, bring the rears 1/2 to 3/4" forward of his suggestion, spread 1" further out, use 1/8" toe. then bring the forward fins back 1/4" or so from his set up, place like your normal front fins, I use 1/4" toe. Using side fins in the rear helps too. I’ve been building a bunch of quads with good results this year. My set up on a 6’0" high performance quad is this: rears at 5 3/4", spaced out 6 1/8" (just over 2 1/2" off the rail) with 1/8" toe, forwards at 10 7/8", 1 1/8" off the rail with 1/4" toe. Just got my hands on the Stretch FCS quads, pretty cool. The most cambered inside foil I’ve seen so far, double foiled rears. I’m so stoked on the quad rebirth. I’m too young to have enjoyed the last go-round. How about the Surfer quad cover, third this year right?

4
Quote:

Can you provide a diagram, or photos of your setup. I’m unfamiliar with ‘‘the McKee formula’’, that you referenced. Can you fill me in , please?

http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/quattro.htm

5

Thanks, Haavard. I took a look at it. Think I’ll pass on the opportunity to comment in any depth. It’s not the approach I’d use. To each his own, they say.

6

FWIW I think if you use the mckee formula, you really need to use alot smaller fins. Going one step down on the tail fins won’t cut it, as he says 3+1 equals 4, not two(meening it won’t surf like a twin). He’s really replacing the center fin of a thruster with two fins and moving them only slightly forward and a hint of toe. How small fin do you need then to keep the same fin are as a thruster and keep the area distributed in a similar fasion? However I would thin that the fin placement in relation to each other (ie. measurements from the rail fins to the tail fins) would be more appropriate than going from a table based on length and adjusting only for tailshape.

My small venture into quads have certainly proved that they can provide plenty of drive and hold at the expence of being stiff(but a weird stiffness that occure at speed, going slow it felt quite loose). Maybe there is a golden middle road somewhere between mckees 3 plus 1 and pavels 2 divided by 2 for quads?

regards,

Håvard

7

hi sparksy !

are you using boxes or plugs for your fins ?

cheers

ben

8

Thanks for the input guys it’s all good stuff. Has anyone any comments on rocker and bottom shape etc for quads that is different from thrusters or do they work similarly?

Chip-I’ve been using fcs.

9

Here’s a pic of one off my latest Quads. This one I creased just the other day while out testing. We’ve had a few weeks of huge swell, all be it stormy.

10

I did some quad fin placement recon over the weekend that may be helpful to somebody.

I want to set up the stringerless eps board I recently made as a quad. It’s 6/2 and wide so I went down to the shop and pulled a 6’2’’ Timmy Patterson quad and a 6’1’’ stretch FF. Placements were thus (numbers denote ‘trailing edge dot’):

Timmy Patterson:

Front fins: set 10 7/8 up; 1 1/8 off the rail; toed in about an inch outside the nose

Rear fins: set 5 1/2 up; 1 1/4 off the rail; toed about an inch outside the nose

Stretch:

Front fins: 11 1/8 up; 1 1/4 off rail; toed about 2 inches outside the nose

Rear fins: 6 up; 1 3/4 off the rail; toed about 2 inches outside the nose

This seems different from the other stuff I’ve encountered. Reports indicate that the T Pattersons are good for grovelly waves but are quite loose.

11

Mckee for a 6’0 board for comparision:

Front fins: set 10 15/16 up; 1 3/16 off the rail; toed in 1 3/8" outside the nose

Rear fins: set 5 1/16 up; 2 1/8 off the rail; toed in 3/8" outside the nose

12

bump; any new thoughts? I’m building a 7’6" mini swallow quad that’s to replace last years same board only a tri. Rocker and outline from a Brewer-Holly template given me. I was going to follow the Mckee formula. The bottom slight single to double. The board is for this winter Orange/San Diego County reefs and points. Any input on fin setup or bottom would be great!

13

If i might add, try 4 ways (4 way fin system: www.4wfs.com) it allows you to adjust and refine your quad fin settings for the board you have shaped.

4 ways allows you to adjust the toe-in and out, as well as splay , and fore-aft movement.

remember quads are pretty new to the modern surfer, Mckee has done some sterling work in giving us the basics to work from and the rest is up to adjsut as our shapes change and the feedback is given from the surfers.

There are no 2 identical boards, there are no 2 identical surfers, fin postions will vary from shape to shape depending on what is produced and who’s going to surf it.

the tools are out there, just reach out and give them a go.

enjoy those quads, i sure am!

Regards

Dean

14

Howdy,

    just to say thanks to Dean. The 4WFS is a fantastic fin system and even better than my brainstorming tried to dream up.

Fully adjustable.

If I had have had the system years back it would have saved a lot of time, frustration and money.

Due to my own mission and loyalties, my website features a different system.

In regards to my posting of a fin position formula on my website, as Dean says “There are no 2 identical boards, there are no 2 identical surfers, fin postions will vary from shape to shape depending on what is produced and who’s going to surf it”.

 The positions I supply are based on a good level surfer's needs, meaning I try for the result to be not too stiff or not too loose etc. I tried to aim for the middle ground on everything from 10' guns to 12' longboards and all that fits below.

You may try a board off the formula and love it and maybe not, but at least you have the base and info to make sure that your next one may be better.

Dean’s system allows you to do what a formula cannot, and that is to move the positions around the board after it is made to fine tune it.

I mention in the site that you can move the cluster together and forward or back, and what is stiff for one surfer may be too loose for another, so with 4WFS it takes away the guess work as you can make ‘on the spot’ adjustments to so many areas.

I may in the future tweak the numbers, depending on the feedback, just to get closer to the average needs of the majority.

The distance between back fin formula I supply now is the only area where the 4WFS cannot adjust, nor can any other system. Depending on whether you want in priorities, a smooth interchange between turns, or a mega grunty bottom turn… but without delayed response in the interchange that may occur from having fins too close to the rail… I try to get it all in one by searching for that right placement and in the end, an 1/8" or 1/4" can make a big difference so… I will restructure the width progression according to where it best suits good surfing.

A lot of the holes in the testing phase are filled with mathematical progressions of fin positions… sometimes accelerating or decelerating.

  I will make the next modification depending on a consensus of opinion. It seems though that if the feeling is slightly not the expected one, then a slight modification will rectify the performance... Many users have loved the positions and swear by them. ..though there is always room for improvement.

Having a thorough read of all the info and downloading all the necessary files assures that there is less room for error.

There are definitely certain positions more suited to certain types of waves and types of people. I have been at it forever and have only scratched the surface of the options…asymmetric mixes add to the fun!

So, if YOU can combine it all together, info, fins and system according to your own taste, then you are a well on the way to be an enlightened being,… quad-wise anyway.

15

Whoops,

meant to say… In relation to the back fin positioning…

Depending on what is more appealing to you, more fluidity and freedom or more knee buckling power, I try to get all the positives in one and in the end, an 1/8" or 1/4" in the distance between the back fins can make a big difference in the search for that magic feel.

In time I will restructure the width progression formula if needed… it’s an endless mission.

Cheers.

16

Hi Bruce,

really good to hear from you again,

i wasn’t sure what you meant in your previous post about 4 ways being “limited” but i am assuming you refer to the ability to spread the fins “apart” or “closer”???

u do know that you can move your fins 3/16" up or down within the dics???

as i have said before 4 way fin system : 4 ways (for ease of reference here) is a fine tuning tool,

i am stoked we agree on some basic principles of surfboards, having the ability to adjust can just allow you to tweak your quad to suit the conditions…

i have heard to easily comments made by surfers saying they think quads are good for smaill waves and not big! Really, they haven’t given them a chance, when u and i starting communictaing years back, i have made some quads that i truely believe are as good as any thruster and have the extra speed and zip, that i was searching for…

keep in touch, i really want to say you did inspire me w.r.t any of my quad shapes, so thanx a lot!

Deano

17

Hi Deano,

        yep, the only limited part is that you cant move the whole box inward toward or away from the stringer.. and that's obviously asking too much from a fin system anyway.

I have just today done a slightly different spread on the distance between back fins formula (just added 3/16") and will send it to you…or stick it in the site. It’s due to the odd reference by some board builders to the back fins being too close together on my formula.

It’s hard to know if they went off the latest info and also hard to know how they really surf… Anyway, it’s an average of the consensus and Swaylocks is great to pick up on all the news.

(Bit of a blab for the viewers)…The Floridian crew and any grovel wave crew, need a more clustered mix and so moving the rear fins forward they obviously should be further apart from each other (away from the stringer). I based my formula more on shortboards in decent waves. Reason being, that, to gain any respect from the Thruster crew through all the years, the quads had to be able to compete in the power wave arena.

Funnily enough it had been the Mavericks win and a ‘Shaper of the year’ offering, that relaunched the quad movement again. Even with this big wave superiority, also with tow-ins, the quads have been herded into two groups, big waves and fishy stuff. So, the industries elite tries to preserve their place in the lineup and the area where quads are in their superior realm, in waves 3 foot and over, is avoided, if not, misted over.

Fin positions for wider tailed boards and the mini wave area is one of the most diversified and difficult, if not impossible areas, to specify just one table of fin positioning. I try to be balanced in the middle of the ‘sweet spot’ with my positioning’ and many will find that squeezing the measurements together in a cluster, or choosing the next size position up the scale (forward) etc, will put them where they want to be in feel and performance. So, with an easy bit of maths they can adjust the excell table to their own special formula.

Anyway Dean, I look forward to hearing from your feedback and what the guys are finding and preferring over in S AF. I’ll adjust my info so as to at least have an updated reference point for everyone… even if they add this or subtract that.

Some of the shaping heirachy are still trying to hang on to the 'Thruster for power surf' delusion. I suggest they actually try a correctly made quad with the right fins, when the power is on... but each to their own. Keeps the industry active.. Always competitive.. and the pedestals are teetering...and... The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Well good to hear from you.

Cheers. B

Here, the old ‘1992 Curren at Jbay photo…Search 2 era’ on a ‘Quattro’ (quad) …,for those in the mist.

18

I think compared to your quad formula, a thruster seems sort of “dumbed down.”

Getting the quad setup right - positioning, fin selection, toe…is exponentially harder than getting the thruster setup right. But once you have it dialed in, the performance is superior. The down side is there is such a huge margin of error that most of the time, if you’re trying to build a guy his first quad, you’re gonna get it wrong. And if you do, you can add that guy to the “thrusters forever” crew.

That being said, the adjustability could be the key to not only happier riders and board builders, but progression in surfing in general.

19

Bruce, from your experience could you just briefly comment on other board design aspects and quad fins.

For example, if you have a favourite thruster board and wanted to make a quad, would it be a good idea to reduce the rocker 5 or 10 percent, slightly increase the rail thickness or change the rail shape?

20

Bruce,

u will be happy to know that we intend to release a limited number of insert dics (in the future) that will be able to allow shapers/surfers to move their fins 1/8" either deeper from or closer to the rail. This will probably be another first int he fin system industry, and probably the only system in the world that coudl offer this going forward.

stoked to hear from you,

cheers

deano