I have been looking through the archives on the topic of Mckee quad setup and the edge setup( trailing fin closer to the rail) and I have some questions being that i am not super familiar with quad placements.
How do these 2 setups differ in cant and tow in?
what fins( base, rake, depth, foil, etc) work best with each system?
What are some examples of fin placements(#'s) for each system?
What are the pros and cons of each setup?
Thanks.
Maybe someone else will have better information, but I’ll give you my 2 cents… It’s hard for me to talk about the differences because I’ve never surfed two identical boards with only the placement different. But I can say this… the “edge” setup have tended to feel more tracky to me than the McKee setup, particularly on wider tailed boards. Pulling the fins in closer in the rear gives a “split the difference” kind of feel that’s more thruster-like, but with more hold, drive and speed. McKees also seem to have a bit more release off the top.
There also seems to be, from my recollection, less of a difference in toe and cant between the front and rear fins in the edge setup (the fins are more parallel) than in the McKee setup. This makes sense to me because the further the front and rears are appart, the greater the difference there should be in AOA and turning radius.
I like slightly bigger fins up front and smaller rears in the McKee setup. Slightly. But some people like them to be much different, even in template, not just scale. Around here I see more similarity between fins than differences on the edge setup, except for the speed dialer type fins (which in my experience don’t work well with the McKee placement specs).
Thanks NJsurfer, that helps alot. If anyone out there knows approximate numbers for fin placement with these two different systems, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/multisystem.htm
This aughtta help get you started… Cruise the site and learn more.
Edge setups are about four inches apart… something like 11 and 7, and little over an inch off the rail for both fins… like 1 1/4 or so. Toe and cant are about the same.
From my experience and Robin “Handshaper” Mair’s suggestion - the edge fins should be from 7/8" to 1 3/8" apart rear of front fin to front of rear fin - fore and aft spread. This keeps the fins working together. Fast set up, no drag. I’ve been customizing some rear fins with great results…
Thanks for the help guys, those are the kinds of answers that I was looking for. I really appreciate the quick responses too.
thanks,
astevens
If you glass them on, you have to add, “Bitch to sand.”
Ha!
But yea… slippery fast feel.
http://www.surfline.com/blog/entry.cfm?id=38677
Sounds like fronts about the same as on a thruster, maybe a bit further forward. For the rears, the more up and out you move, the closer you get to a twin fin; further back and together the closer you get to a thruster. I think for my bad attempt at mimicking a rusty Dwart I used McKee’s numbers but with the rears maybe an inch further up and an inch further apart to get a looser feel. If you have a professionally shaped quad or one you can borrow from a buddy, that might be good to have on hand just as something to get a loose idea from. Not even for the measurements, more for just looking and seeing how close is too close and how far is too far away if you know what I mean.
It ocured to me the other day, while checking out my friends quad… (a really sweet ‘Rainbow’ Fish, which he had trashed) that, at the risk of over simplifying things, quad setups could fall into 2 catagories 1) Twin-like or 2) Thruster-like.
The ‘Twin-Like’ setup is where the trailing fin has cant, toe in and is closer to the lead fin, creating a kind of extended/longer twin fin with a slight gap between to reduce drag… add foil and fin size and things get more complex, but looking at it in the most basic way, you’ve got two fins in the water at the same time on the same rail, basically doing the same thing. My friend’s Rainbow had this setup.
The ‘Thruster-Like’ setup has the trailing fin pushed in slightly towards center and has no cant or toe in… basically a center fin to work in tandem with the thruster fin on that side of the board.
The most basic difference between the two is the same basic difference between a twin and a thruster. If you’ve riden them both, then you know. Depending on how you configure it, you can dial your quad in one direction or the other.
I guess my point is, you can turn a quad into what you want, based on how you like to ride and what kind of wave you’re riding. My friend took his Rainbow out on a big day and trashed it. He hadn’t had it very long and I think he just assumed since it was a quad that it would ride like his other one… it didn’t, and he paid for it. Granted, his other quad is a few inches longer, but it also has the trailing fins set up with no cant and placed a bit towards center. I think if he were on his other board he… well… never mind… he’d of ate shit either way.
My 2 colones.
Yeah NJ - No glass ons here. Still capping the RedX, and still very thankful to be able to move the fins. Now to make a fin panel with about 10 degrees of cant built in…
So I read that link to surfline about how rusty does his quads. I also talked to a local shaper that I know, and he said the same thin as rusty. I'm slightly doubting this method because the rears and front fins seem so far apart as compared to what ive read on the McKee and edge systems.
I'm making a 5'3" Pod type board.
Thinking 10.5 and 1 1/8 off rail for fronts, 4 1/8 up and 2" over for rears. Its a wider board that'll have a spiral v in the tail. 19.5 in. wide too.
Rusty'sformula is same for front as thruster. Rear is 2" over and take rear measurement for a thruster (ie. 3"), then takemeasurement of front fins up( 10.5) divide by 2 then find difference between 3" and that measurement. will this work? it seems so different than mckee and edge. Tow is to the same point off the nose too with a little less cant in the rears(ie 8 front 6 rear)
Makes sense to me. I think of Rusty’s method as the “not quite an edge” setup. Seems more edge than McKee to me, but might soften the trackiness I mentioned earlier as the rears are moved in off the rail a a bit more.
I went with Rusty’s advice for my latest quad (6’1" Diamond Tail). I am very happy with the result so far. I wanted a blend between the “rail” setup and the “mckee” setup and I think I got it. Play by play is here:
http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/last-minute-advice-quad-placement-please
I feel compelled to say it again - If you can get the lay out how it works for you, the edge fin set up, ala Robin “Hand shaper” Mair, is not tracky and does not have the drag of the McKee any other split the difference set up… My experience is: I could feel the drag and stall of the tri type feel once the spread was over 1 1/2". But, I also was able to adjust the set up and found I like the toe side to be @ 7/8" and the heel side to be @ 1 3/8".
To be sure, if you ride an edge fin set up, and it’s not quite right for you… The McKee type will feel more tri like and easier to adjust too, but you won’t know what a good edge fin set up feels like either…
TaylorO… Do you like the edge setup on a typical performance shortboard shape with typical rocker/width/tail etc.? How far off the rail do you like your fronts and rears to be? With the edge setup you like, do you set your fronts at standard thruster specs from tail and rail?
I’m considering putting in 5 boxes for a convertable thruster/quad setup on my next board… a typical shortboard type shape. Picking up some blanks today.
what is the Edge setup and where can I read more? thx
Greg, check out the link I posted above for layout and measurements.
I do 1.5"…I think Brian at Greenlight (and others) uses 1.25"
This is the config I got from Probox Larrrrr, I would imagine that this is pretty close if not identical to Mair’s considering their partnership.
I also like this quad setup, it squares off the bottom well and also has that down-the-line turbo feeling when you get the rail engaged.
Hey NJ - I converted all my tri’s to “edge finned” by added the rear boxes - front boxes, obviously perhaps, my idea of a traditional tri fin set up (About 12.5% of board length from tail to rear of front fin - although Robin M. measures from the front of the front fin - @ 12" on an 8’er.)
I made one 8’er edge fin from scratch, and I’m testing out deep channels per Robin’s suggestion - it is by far the fastest - but not as snappy as another similar 8’er with more kick, way less channel 1/8" v. 3/8" in the tail area. Next time I think I’ll make sure I have more rocker deeper into the tail.
Fronts @ 1 1/4" off rail - back @ 1 3/8" off rail. front did the 4.5" x 1/4" off set toe, 1/8" on rears.
If my camera battery wasn’t dead I’d have pic of my most recent rear fin customizations…
For me the use of no rake tubercled rear fins has been a big revelation, over the traditional side bites I used for a while… More fin to “push off” = more “drive” = speed, but sharper, more “pivoty” turning… Plus “that down-the-line turbo feeling when you get the rail engaged.” Which is there no matte what the fins… Heck, I think when I first started on my biggest guns with two standard rear fins in the back… That was some down the line turbo…
show me your tubercles…