question : bottom rails retro fish

Hi everyone

Just shaping a 5’10 retro fish.

I have a question regarding the rails bottom side.

I am kind of lost with the bottom rails, what I am supposed to do?

The rail line is 60/40 and rail will be rather boxy.

I shaped the deck side, everything is OK so far but for the bottom I don’t know. Well I know I have to shape a tucked under rail but I don’t know what angle I should use for the bevel.

I actually started with a 45 degree angle for the first bevel or was I supposed to have a 60 degree angle.

The fred tool is set up with a 60 degree angle?

I didn’t want to go right away for a 60 degree angle because I didn’t feel like lowering the apex.

I actually wanted to start with a 45 ° from nose to about 18" from the tail or maybe 12" and from there up to the tip of the tail I would have a razor sharp edge.

Then I would have a second bevel from nose up to the middle to flatten the edge of the bevel, the bevel would be a 60 or 70 degree angle.

From the middle up to 18" or 12" I would leave it like that, just smoothen out a little bit the the edge of that 45 degree bevel.

I have an issue picking the right rail for the tail starting at 18" from the tail, should I have a tucked under edge or rather start with a hard edge up to the tip.

I have read that leaving a hard edge would make the board kind of skittery and that a tucked under edge would help the rail suck into the wave and make the board more stable.

Last question : what are the steps to shape a beak?

I could be wrong so if you know the angles don’t hesitate to help me out. I would not want to mess it up .

Thanks for considering my request.

Cheers

…Why go retro? a “modern” fish platform works far better

anyway,

a retro fish doesnt has 60/40s, more like down rails

that fred tool is kind of a “new” stuff, but the angle is around 30º

for the beak nose: normally you can generate it with the rail bands, if for some reason you cant, after you do the rails, do a last pass with the planer (on the deck) in the nose. How far? the width of the rails

I thought a 60/40 rail was a down rail. Anyway, I don’t use a ‘Fred.’ I use a surform with microblades or a sanding block depending on the foam. I begin the cut about 17-18 inches from the tail, hold the surform at a 45 dgree angle to the bottom, right on the edge of the bottom. I begin with the weight of the tool and as I cut forward increase the pressure, making a bevel. Usually takes 3 or 4 passes. Count the strokes. Repeat the strokes to opposite side. Now you have two new edges. I hold the tool on the edge and cut towards the nose repeating the process on each new edge and end up with 3 bevel cuts. Hope that makes some sort of sense and helps. Fred tool is easier if you have or make one. Mike

…more than a 70/30s than 60/40s

Thanks for the info.

I shaped the bottom rail, I didn’t use the fredtool, I started at 6" from the tail, I didn’t feel like starting at 18".

I wanted to have the tucked under way further, do you think that by doing so the board will be less skitery?

So I did a 45 degree bevel from 6" to 1/3 of the board (nose section), I left the hard edge of that bevel, I didn’t smoothen it out. Is it wrong?

I thought it would allow more control by leaving that edge.

I actually did a 45 degree bevel up to the tip of the nose + a 60 degree bevel.

Do you think it would be better to smoothen it out so the rail will be full rounded?

…I do the fishes a sharp or hard rail on tail

so starting beveling at 6" from tips, makes for a difficult attempt to achieve that

but yes, you can do the other way I do sometimes in shortboards that sport wider tails

easier to rail to rail moves

I do a tucked edge from nose to the hard or sharp tail rail

or with a bevel (chine) like you say in the nose

I check where s the rider back foot to put the hard edge (and the fins)

if you have too much volume in the rail, may be better go with your idea if not, too much rail sucking (holding) water so more difficult to move, but better grab

Hi Ocean,

I’m having a hard time visualizing what you mean. You started 6" from the tail and went how far with your first bevel? You should take it to the nose. I then put the tool on the new edges starting starting at (usually 17-18" from tail) and run it along each new edge making 3 bevels. Count the number of strokes so you can repeat it on the other side. Once I’ve cut the deck bevel I blend the rails using screening or sand paper. Again, counting the strokes. Mike

I attached a little drawing so you may see what I did, first shape many mistakes I guess

First have a look at the rail foil (rail band) in red, the thing I did, I picked the 6" spot from the tail tip, I picked a 60/40 rail line in the middle with a transition into 50/50 in the nose.

I forgot to mention : S deck

I did my rail band that way because I wanted that hard edge in the tail.

I guess I was supposed to have a hard edge at least up to 12", at least in the fin and surfer’s back foot section.

I did so because I thought by having a smaller hard edge the board would be less skitery since I picked very boxy rails.

I made the rail band very large,

I started shaping the deck first.

The thing I did with the deck was wrong, I used the marking gauge and drew lines on the deck so it means that with the line I had of course a 45 degree angle in the middle because I took the 45 degree measurement from the upper part of the rail band in the mid section and that line on the deck remained parallele to the outline up to the nose so it means that I don’t have a 45 degree angle in the nose by following the so called bevel line on the deck.

I made 2 bevels for the deck.

For the bottom I started at 6" from the tail since it is the spot where the lower line of my band rail meets the bottom of the board.

Well this time no marking gauge. I went all the way up to the nose with a 45 degree angle

Then had a second bevel at 60 degree in the nose section, (view the green spot on the drawing)

I am aware I did many things wrong

I think I made a mistake when drawing the rail foil rail band, I don’t know how to do it in the tail section, I picked 6" at the tail and decided that the lower line of the rail band ends there.

For the deck I draw those lines with the marking gauge on the deck, I indeed had a 45 degree angle in the mid section but then in the nose since the rail band goes up I didn’t have a 45 degree angle by cutting throught the deck line and upper line of the rail band, I rather had a 60 degree angle or more

For the bottom rail, 1 st bevel at 45 degree all the way and as stated in a previous posting I didn’t smoothen out the little angle, just left like that thinking that by having a very boxy rail there would be more release.

The tail of the board is rather thick so I decide for the hard rail to end at 6" from the tail tip.

Well first shape and many mistakes, any comments more than welcome.

I thinkyou’re confusing bevel cuts with rail bands. A rail band is not a straight bevel cut, it’s a tapered

bevel cut. Read Barnfield’s ‘‘tapered rail band’’ thread, and take a look at Haavard’s ''simple hotwire

rail band tool’’ (I think you’re doing PU but the way his tool works helps you to understand the geometry).

You don’t need a bevel tool for the bottom bands anyway, there’s not that much foam to remove. I use

the planer to do them, but a sanding block works fine (but slower). Just cut a tapered primary band,

making sure it’s fair at the intersection with both bottom and square part of rail. Cut the same band on

the other side, get them symmetric and fair. Then cut a little secondary tapered band underneath into the

square part of the rail. You should be able to screen or sandpaper from there. Don’t make it more difficult

than it is, if you already did the deckside rail you should be all warmed up and ready to go!

Thanks for the comments. I mixed up rail band with template band as described in Mr Barnfield’s thread.

I have a question regarding the rail template. I used a marking gauge to draw the template band.

My issue : the hard edge on the fish 5.10 is supposed to start from 18" or 16" from the tail’s tip but when drawing the template band the lines don’t end up at 18" or 16", in my case they ended up at 6"

How am I supposed to handle that, do I have to draw myself the line so they end up at 18" but I don’t know how to handle that because I might disrupt the natural flow of the foil.

To be more clear that is what I did

You may check the video on youtube of some shaper who did that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WEuynu34oA

I picked a 60/40 rail line in the mid section, I drew 2 dots, one above and underneath the rail line, picked the marking gauge and did like the shaper on the video.

I ended up with the template band ending up in the 6" area (tail section) instead of 12" or 18"

Right at the beginning I wanted the hard razor edge to start at 6" but if I had wanted the 16" or 18" I would not have known how to do that.

I kind of imagine how do that, draw myself the line with the risk of not having a nice natural flow of the rail line.

Then other thing, the template band was drawn then at the mid section I measured the distance between the upper line of the template band and the deck edge of the rail, 1" then I picked the marking gauge and drew a line 1" away from the edge in order to have a 45 degree angle with the template band at mid section but then the thing, in the nose section I have the line at 1" away from the edge so the angle with the template band at nose section was increased and wasn’t a 45 degree angle.

I guess I should not have drawn the line with the marking gauge. I should have rather used the planer and go with a 45 degree angle following the upper line of the template band.

Is it wrong to do it with the marking gauge, just drawing a line parallele to the outline?

I guess I should have done it like in the Bill Barnfield’s great thread, use a template in order to have a 45 degree angle all the way.

Since I am a beginner I need those lines to set up the bevels.

Any comments more than welcome

Since my template band was large 3/4" my rails are very boxy, what is the issue with boxy rails with a fish?

Now my board is completly shaped, rail line 60/40 very boxy rails, rail line in the nose 50/50

Hard edge from tail’s tip up to 6" then a bevel at 45 degrees up to the tip of the nose, from 6" to around 15" from the nose I left the bevel like that so it is a chine rail and from 15" up to the nose I added up another bevel at 60 degree to have it round.

My fins will be (trailing edge) at 6"

I bet many mistakes but this is board number 1 :slight_smile:

Hi Oceanpearl,

I’m glad Mike Daniels chimed in and recommend you follow his advice. Your boxy railed fish will probably surf well and be a lot of fun. I don’t think it is resonable to expect someone to be able to incorporate complex design elements into a first board, let alone many more to come. My advice is to enjoy your board, learn from the experience, keep studying the archives, find an experienced shaper and laminator and watch them work. Keep building boards because surfing is way more fun on a board you built with your own hands. You may be able to build up the sharp edge from the tail when you laminate the board by taping and building up a resin bead and glass roving. Mike

Im with rooster. You should see the rails on my home made fish. One rail band ( and the boards 3’’ thick ), pretty basic looking rail shape. But i love it, it goes unreal for me, and i doubt i could tell the difference anyway.

I would like to thank everyone for the technical comments and the great guiding lines.

So if I got it right I will do the sharp edges up to 16" or 18" (tail section) when I do the lamination.

So with my next board I don’t even need to worry when I draw the template band, I just use the marking gauge like I did and if the template band ends up in the 6" or 5" area I don’t need to worry, no need to redraw the template line in order to transition so the band lands into the 16" section?

By the way am I right when drawing the template band with the marking gauge and following the rocker that way or should I do it another way.

When I read Beerfan’s posting I should not worry too much :slight_smile: about the rails. I thought if I messed up that my board would not react properly especially with retro fish, I read so many things about fishes being loose in the tail, I am aware that a fish is like a skate and kind of tracks but I would love to shape that reacts properly without having to shape 100 boards :slight_smile:

Sorry for all those questions, with the rail building process I thought those details were very important such as having a chine rail so the boxy rails would suck far less in the wave and allowing more control because I feel like doing curves and not just surfing in straight lines.

I know as well that fishes tend to do that but when I see those videos of guys surfing fishes like crazy doing curves aso I just want to shape the same :slight_smile:

Well I am a beginner so I think I should go slow :slight_smile: it would be too easy to come up with a great shape with the first try!!!

I would like to thank the swaylock community for sharing everything about surfing, just great!!!

Hey mate, the hard edge on my fish ( and all boards ) is from resin, and sanding.

I dont know what you mean by template band, i dont use gauges, though i do mark out the rails.

My twin keel does not really track, though the keels have a little bot of toe, and also a bit of cant. They’re fibreglass, and glassed on, they feel unreal.

My twin keel also doesnt surf just in straight lines. I dont surf snappy, but i love carvy, swoopy turns, and it does em great!!!.

Homestly mate, your board WILL work, relax and enjoy!, and let us know how it goes too.

Cheers

Thank you Beerfan, I actually didn’t know that thing with the hard rails being created with the lamination.

Regarding the template band, check the pic in that thread. It is Bill Barnfield’s thread

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=248833;search_string=template%20band;#248833

For me it is the rail line band.

So if I got it right, I should smoothen out the razor edge before lamination otherwise I will get bubbles and then put the hard rail once the lamination is done.

Regarding the rail line band how do you do that without the gauge?

I just use a square, and put it on the bottom of the board flat. Then i measure “up” the square rail where i want the rail band to end. I do this every 12’‘, and every 3’’ near the tail and nose. Then, i do the same on the deck. I hope this is making sense. After that, i just use shaping screen, and blend all the square edges into a round shape. Next board, however, i will do 2 or more bands, as one band is not “pretty”.

I think the sharp edge in the tail can be done a few different ways, though i find it easier to do with resin.

Cheers

OceanPearl,

After you finish your first board a lot of thing will become much more clear. Theres no getting around firing up the planer and hacking away. Shaping is only the half of it, just wait till you glass.

I put a hard edge on the last 12 in of tail. This runs in conjunction with where i put my Probox fin box. Trailing edge of front Probox at 12", hard edge starts at 12"…this is for a retro style fish with a quad set up.

I also recommend not getting too caught up in numbers and focus on good clean ‘eye appealing curves.’ Like a woman. If it looks good it probably will surf good. Ive gotten that hard rear edge so sharp it cut me when sanding. That board surfed well, but not as well as some of my boxy railed earlier boards. The 17-18 inch hard edge I mentioned is the distance of my elbow resting at the tip and the palm of my hand, holding my surform. I don’t even use a measuring tape. This puts the transitioning point to the rolled under edge a few inches in front of the fins. That’s just how I do it and I’m no expert. I’ve probably built 25 or 30 fishes, only. Mike

Hey stephan, here are some pics, in reply to your pm.

Remember, this is a really basic technique, but it will work. I’ve only shaped 4 boards ( this one is number 5 ), and all my ( finished ) boards have been done this way. Although on the next one i will try 2 or even 3 rail bands.

Here you can see where i’ve marked where the top of the rail will be. And also, how far out on the deck it will go.

And this is what it should look like when its ready to be “rounded out” with the screen.

I hope this makes sense stephan.

I must repeat that this is a very basic way to shape rails, however, my 3 finished boards that have these rails work great. Obviously, when you get closer to the nose with the screen, you make the shape a bit more round.