Greg L. or anyone else that has used RR epoxy I have some questions about laminating with epoxy. How exactly do you laminate a board using epoxy? As i understand it you cant squeegee it like poly resin or its going to froth. So how do you effectively move the stuff around in a reasonable amount of time? Also using alot less resin how do you wet the laps. As a novice laminator i just use more resin and squeegee it over the laps until all of my laps are saturated. If you are using less resin with epoxy how do the laps get completely saturated?
Hi Jason I watched our local laminater just wet out as normal (poly), then take his time, putting on a comic act, and move epoxy resin around sorta slowly and with no problems. Laps he did as normal, just flip them up, work from the widepoint out towards both ends, flip back down, and squeegee tight. And 8’4" board came out 10lbs. even, with almost a pint of paint. Of course, with epoxy, you spacket seal the lam coat, best done by hand with surgical gloves and cabasil mix.
“Hi Jason I watched our local laminater just wet out as normal (poly), then take his time, putting on a comic act, and move epoxy resin around sorta slowly and with no problems. Laps he did as normal, just flip them up, work from the widepoint out towards both ends, flip back down, and squeegee tight. And 8’4” board came out 10lbs. even, with almost a pint of paint. Of course, with epoxy, you spacket seal the lam coat, best done by hand with surgical gloves and cabasil mix." ----------------------------------------------------------- Flip them up? As in flip it on to the deck? I tried that with poly and it didnt work too well for me. I want to order some of Gregs RR epoxy but i want to make sure I have a good idea of how to laminate with epoxy.
Jason, look up Greg Loehr as author in archives and look around for a few seconds. He’s got a step-by-step how-to. The key is thorough mixing and a “letting it soak in” rather than “push it in” squeegee approach. If you use Gregs stuff you don’t have to seal the blank before laminating…
I just used Resin Research Epoxy for the first time this weekend and was going to post about it, but ill do it here. I used 12 oz for a 5’9 x 19.5 shortboard (Greg’s scale was 9-12 oz for under 6 ft) and that was enough to wet out the bottom using a plastic spreader, but when I pulled the resin out of the middle to the rails after letting it soak in, I did not have enough for the rails so I mixed up 6 more oz but only needed 4, so in total that was 16 oz used(into the 6-7 ft board range on Greg’s scale) for a 5’9 (plus 2oz left in the bucket). With that extra resin, one lap I flipped up and poured the resin on (I got a lot of strings) and the other side I sqeegeed the resin off the edge dripping down for the other lap (worked better). I dont know how I could use 9 oz for a board, I could maybe see 12 oz if someone super skilled did it but it would be impressive… I used the fast hardener but it still took all day for it to get hard (it was about 60-65 degrees - not hot enough I guess). I did cut laps, because I did not want to worry aout the laps getting messy (which they did). At first, the lamination seemed hard enough to flip and cut (if it was poly, the same texture would mean it was time) but the epoxy was not ready - even though it seemed hard and barely tacky, it was still gooey once fiddled with and the tape from the racks pulled up the glass, but to my surprise, I just stuck that cloth back down fine - the epoxy had a very strange gooey texture. I left it alone the rest of the day. It was rock hard by nightfall. Then when I cut the laps with a razor, it left a sliver of tape along the whole cut - with poly, if that happens (which it usually doesnt except for a small piece here and there), the tape can be pulled out, but the epoxy really grabbed it and wouldn’t let it go. After gouging up my foam and getting minimal tape out, i decided to leave it alone. So for the other lap, I folded the tape over on itself and the glass just ripped off clean at the tape line, without any cutting! So that side came out perfect - I just peeled the glass off along the tape line. Wierd! This was my first try so I am sure that I need to get used to a different medium - just wanted to let the other first timers know some of the differences from poly and I was hoping to get a few tips for doing it better next time! It was very nice to not deal with nasty fumes and cleanup chemicals! http://groups.msn.com/thegrasshoppersurfboard/shoebox.msnw
jason- im no expert, in fact im a complete shaping glassing idiot/ beginner, but ive absolutely scoured the archives to slap together some sort of glassing technique. first off, greg’s resin is fantastic. im on my 5th board with the stuff and ive surfed the previous 4 regularly for the last few weeks- i weigh 200lbs with wetsuit and havent dented one yet (with poly, it normally takes a few duckdives or popups before i have dents). i use clark green, 2.5 4oz on top and 2 4oz on bottom- as light or lighter than most boards ive handled. to your question- as i said, im the farthest thing from an expert, but here it goes (some of this is from other posts, but i thought it may help) 1) ive been using the high end of the recommended amounts, but no more 2) with the long/no gel time, you can pull out alot of resin from the flats on to the rails 3) DUMP IT ALL! it gets hot quick in the bucket. instead of dumping it all along the stringer (like poly i think) i have found it is easier to dump a thick line down the stringer and then dump the rest out towards the sides (about 1/2 way to the rails) 4) im doing cutlaps too- i think they are easier. i bought this 8inch long plastic spreader type thing that i hold under the laps as i pull the resin over the lap cloth with the usual squegee/spreader. that works really well and it wets out the laps much quicker than if you just let it run (and wastes much less) . i have found that the epoxy tends to follow the same path off the fabric instead of wetting it out if you just let it run off. im just looking at what i wrote and thinking is incomprehensible. basically, take a long plastic spreader in your left had and hold it under the lap so it is flat with the deck. then, pull the resin over it with your right hand spreader 5) spreaders instead of squeege’s. i go to home depot and get the bondo type spreaders. they come in a package of 5 or 6 and the small ones are good to keep in your pocket as a backup/ clean up for the rails. 6) ive done all my hotcoats with the disposable foam brushes- they seem to work ok and are pretty cheap, but i have nothing to compare to. (i do get dimples, but i sand them down and do a final coat on top) 7) i think john mellor came up with the idea of hotcoating an hour or two after the lam- its worked great for me so far on the flats, but i dont do the rails like that because i dont know if its safe to tape a still tacky lam. 8) 1 cc of additive F per ounce of HARDENER. thats HARDENER, not the whole mix. to figure out what im talking about, look in the archives under “gummy”. as i said, im an idiot. 9) as far as the curing- ive made the most shabby heating box you could imagine, but it works great. i have a used electric space heater and owens-corning fanfold insulation. just glass the board then put the fanfold around it and lay the rest on top, a la house of cards. my “glassing shed” (basement) has one window and is a consistent 57 deg. the epoxy will cure at that temp, but it takes a while. with the heat box, i can flip the board after about 4-5 hours 10) when doing the cutlaps, i dont flip the board, i get on my ass and cut from underneath. im afraid that if i wait until i can flip the board, the glass will be too hard to cut. THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY! if anyone is doing epoxy cutlaps, please help. i think thats about it john nope- i heat the resin before i use it. i have a toaster oven set to low/warm and i leave it in for less than a minute. (candy therm says approx 90-100degF) now, taking advice from an idiot is a whole different story. take it for what its worth…not much
Pratice and knowing how much resin you can take out of the fabric takes some time. I’ve done boards of that size with 9 oz. of resin many times. Also warming the resin when it’s cold will allow you to use much less and make a lighter, tighter board. Think of it this way, there is only 2 pounds of resin in a finished board of that size. That’s about a quart for laminates, hot coats, boxes and plug. With epoxy there is very little evaporation going on and without solvents in the resin little soaks into the foam. We formulated the pot life with a bit more work time so there would be less waste and better quality in the finished product. So you get to work with exactly what you need and there is little waste. Now I will admit that it took YEARS to figure this out and the is plenty of wasted epoxy in the landfills of central Florida from the trial and error period. On trim laps I like to double the Additive F amounts. Epoxy is real sticky stuff and the blade hangs up when trimming. Using more F actually lubricates the blade as it slides though the resin and makes a better trim. 60º is pretty close to minimum for epoxy. We’ve worked down into the low 50’s but as you noted things do get slow at that point. When the temps get low, we just try to do one side a day. Once it’s above 70º everything works fine and a regular work schedule can be maintained.
Thanks for the great info Greg. I guess it will take me a few tries to get the right technique ( or temperature) to get the resin to go as far as it can. One more question - when you wet out the laps, do you fold them up on them flats or do you push the resin over the edge, letting it drip down? http://groups.msn.com/thegrasshoppersurfboard/shoebox.msnw
Greg, Is additive F compatible with other sorts of epoxies. I’m on the other side of the world from you (New Zealand) and don’t imagine I’ll be seeing RR epoxy here any time soon. I could probably get someone to bring me some additive F though if it would work with what I have here. I use a pretty generic boat building epoxy. Thanks for all your great epoxy info - everyone. Jon
I don’t know if it works with others, I haven’t tried the others. I do have customers who claim that it does though.