THE FINS ARE IN THE WATER 95% OF THE TIME ,AND THE BOARD IN GENERAL, IS RIDDEN FLAT,EVEN WHEN GOING UP AND DOWN THE FACE( IN AN EXTREME TUBE RIDE AT PIPE ON A THRUSTER, ALLTHE FINS AND THE LAST TWO OR THREE FEET OF BOARD IS FLAT TO THE RIDER AND IN THE WATER…A BAD TIME FOR MISALIGNMENT,BRA !).
…THE ONLY TIME THAT THIS IS NOT THE CASE IS ON HARD TURNS,WHEN YOU REALLY NEED THE BOARD TO RESPOND CORRECTLY////////IN AND OUT OF THE TURN.
A BOARD THAT DOESN’T TRACK CORRECTLY WILL… DIE, DO WOOPDIES,SPINOUT… IN CUTBACKS OR HARD TURNS… MAKING IT INCONSISTANT.
IT’S YOUR CHOICE…I BUILD MY BOARDS TO SUIT ME FIRST AND THIS IS WHAT I’VE FOUND TO BE THE TRUTH.
I’ve spent lots of time looking at photos for these reasons, so thanks for reminding me. I would, however, suggest that there is a definite difference in the pressure being applied to one side of the board over the other, but I’m not sure that discounts your position.
That being said, I’ve not experienced any problems having my fins set asymmetrically, but I’d love to hear about others experiences comparing the ride/feeling of standard tri set up v. asym set up…
Granted, we’d have to get into things like the board needing to be the same, which I do have the ability to test - one board, movable side fins - and I have not noticed a difference in the pocket, I’ve noticed slight difference in the initiation of turns/rail engagement. Of course this could be because it was suggested to me by Tom@Duam, and I just think I feel it.
Let my ask you this Herb - If I agree with you about the function and performance, then why/how/what is it about the fins being symmetrical from the center line which causes them to have an increase/decrease in their function.
And, lastly, what is “dragon skin?” I’m with you on the use of nice heavy duty sanding devices. Makes me wish I’d saved some of my old flat skate deck w/“pizza” grip…
The rail determines how you can set the AOA of the fins.
The wave doesn’t care and doesn’t know where the center line is, it does, though, know (to anthropomorphize the wave) where the fins and the rail is, and the fins and the rail are what the board is interacting with.
For the most part, the outside fin is not important, until it becomes the inside fin (like during a cutback).
That dragon skin holder is brilliant… I really HATE the surform. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve rolled it over and put a huge gouge in the nose rail.
the red devil holder…it works killer ,so do the others mentioned.
as far as setting fins from the rail or center…it’s your choice.
the waves don’t think…you’re correct on that one ob…but do you?
of course you do…i played alot with asymetrics back in the 70s and 80s…and by my experience… an even setting on mulitfinned boards works better…period(provided the shaper is skilled enough to shape a clean board…and the glasser,if you use one,doesn’t f#%k it up).
if your shape is clean… then it really doesn’t matter where you measure from,and you should measure from both to mike it down anyway.
the real; joke here… is… you really set from both center and rails at all times,whether you are consicence of it or not.lol.
Right on Herb -**“if it works for you,whatever it is,and makes you feel good about your accomplishments…do it!” **Heck - This is the frame I make my boards on. I try to use a foundation of basic hydrodynamic principles, and go from there, but there are times when my attempts a melding some ideas doesnt’ work out so well.
I’m not trying to be dick for the fun of it, heck, I’m not trying to be one at all (Hope I’m not too much… Ha!)
I think one reason I like to “push” the issue is, in your what I quoted from you above - “If it works.” It seems sometimes folks here are suggesting if the fin(s) are off by much, as little as less than 1/2", then the board won’t work. My experience, and that of my test rider, a former traveling pro, is symmetry, at lest when it comes to tail out-line, foil, and fin placement, is not the primary concern.
“The outside fin does more than just sit the wait for
redirection…it’s the whole purpose for the vacuum lift
and stick.”
Herb - or anyone else - care to elaborate on this… This is what I was referring to when I said I’d been studying photo’s and videos for insight into pocket/tube riding. And, given the nature of the way this thread is going, and the thread I’m about to start, I’d like to see what people think about lift, speed, control, etc…
As for the Dragon skin… Looks awesome - I’l have to find some before I start the next board.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. I can see the reasoning in both your and TaylorO's logic, but what do you do when the stringer isn't straight. I'm sure you've dealt with a ton of crooked stringers. If the entire stringer is bowed from tip to tail do you straight edge the stringer before you cut the outline and after you shape to set the fins?
I’m with you on lift Herb - But I’ve understood that toe-in had to do with helping in turn initiation and tracking reduction - but toe-in supposedly increases drag while going straight.
As for the car analogy - what about the fact a car, for all intents and purposes, has the same power going right/left - “front/toe side”/“back/heel side?”
My point is this: I’ve used asymmetry do to the fact I do not apply the same power with my toes and I do with my heels. I know this is one of the areas I feel my body is “sensitive,” i.e., I’ve really noticed the difference over the years.
toein does help in turning,yes…it also helps in creating a vortex = lift and stick.
the human factor is the most important factor.
you ever see someone ripping on a board ,that was unknown to you in design,you get a chance to ride it in good surf and it does everything wrong for you… less killing you on the spot.
the human factor.
i think builders and riders have lost sight of the reasons ,why we have side fins at all,maybe because …it time to lose them…for awhile…anyway.
i got a completely new design ,fin and tail coming aboard .it should be done by this week.
it involves several theories,and countless hours of wind/tank/computer time involved.
it will be easy to shape/duplicate…and parts are readily available/already exsist.
I call it ,“spitzer boattail bullet”.
a big thankyou to bill thrailkill for the help/knowledge/and his design theories,and a big thankyou to tomatdaum for his help/knowledge/and his design theories.
w/o bill t.and/or tom o’keef this design,may never have been built.
once it’s in the water…it should prove to be superior to anything past or present,in any conditions…period.