which suck into the face of a wave better hard or soft rails. i think it’s hard am i not correct and if so why?
Soft…more water wrapping around, more drag from that.
But hard rails are usually faster, as LESS water wraps around it, being parted by the hard edge.
Fast big waves, soft rails.
Slow small waves, blade hard turned down rails.
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Soft…more water wrapping around, more drag from that.
But hard rails are usually faster, as LESS water wraps around it, being parted by the hard edge.
Fast big waves, soft rails.
Slow small waves, blade hard turned down rails.
Isnt the other way around? Dont you want bulkier rails on small less powerful waves so you dont sink too much and slow down? At the same time, the extra speed generated on bigger surf lets you use a thinner rail without sinking. A boxy rail on bigger surf would be too corky and wont hold a good edge.
the hard rails will plane over the surface of the water… in fast, hollow surf, a hard rail won’t maintain trim…but in those conditions, the water will wrap around and lock in a soft railed board.
Soft rail - has a radius of at least half an inch
Hard rail - may have a radius of 1/8 inch or less.
Down rails bite in good, hold well and are fast. They also turn like a bandit. But down rails are either hard or soft which refers to the radius of the curve.
Rolled rails will hold okay, but will also behave like a really round rail. This means the board can be looser with the weight shifted forward.
Soft rails allow you to ease out a turn, make a little controlled slippage if you want while hard rails bite in, hard, and can cause a few problems like “catching a rail”. You wouldn’t want an all-hard downrailed board. Usually, it’s more like this, from nose to tail- round to rolled (see the next bit) to hard down rails.
Or even more complicated - hard, down rails right at the first foot of nose, for lift as you take off, easing to a very soft low but not down rail about midway so that the main edge at the middle of the board will ‘swoosh’ a bit (love that high-tech terminology) and then easing down and getting harder towards the tail for a positive bite when you want to hold an edge going across a steep part of the wave or turn.
A hard rail is usually also a down rail.
Thinner rails pierce the water and hold you in there, while thicker rails won’t get hung up in transitions.
Generally, sharper and lower rail line designs give decisive control when riding fast on the back third of the board, shortboard style, but are more difficult and less forgiving than soft rails. Sharper rails are also needed if sweeping turns are done using more rail than fin (like when a surfer positions himself towards the middle of the board, rather than at the back of the board over the fins) or the board will bog down. For a beginner a hard rail in the tail is ok as long as it gradually softens in the middle and front two-thirds of the board.
A soft rounded rail allows the surfer to completely exploit his fin’s turning radius. Since torque is equal to force times distance, non-biting rails allow turning from near the tail to be fast and effortless in smaller surf. Tricks and many higher scoring contest maneuvers are also easier to perform with soft rails. The chief problem with soft rails in faster waves is speed. Since more actual rail contact is made with the wave face on large or quick breaking waves, soft rails will create more friction and thus more drag.
Thin rails also have “tuck”, meaning the sharper part of the edge is near the bottom.Many board designs have a softer rail in the front, and slowly curve to a harder, tucked rail in the rear. The softer front can be a little more forgiving while turning while a hard rail will sometimes “bite” the side of a wave when turning in a tight spot causing problems.
One of the most important speed considerations is rail shape since to make the board break free and plane a hard rail will encourage water release and fast planing and high top end speeds. The problem is hard rails are not that loose and want to turn only in the arc supplied by the combination of the rocker and tail template.
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Good try on long boring thread, but you should try your theory before expousing so much nonsense.
Have been doing extentsive testing and refining of rails for a number of years. Lee is spot on.
cappio777,
Please! I’m surprised LeeDD was so gentle with you. That was so much voodoo, pseudo, bullshit, that I’m almost speechless. You have so much to learn, that it boarders on hopeless. Don’t take this as a personal attack, it’s an observation of how you have been led astray by misinformation. I hope you’ll be able to recover.
I remember having read this text before : http://scsurfers.com/board/
Are you GP, the author of that website ?
Hey Bill, PlusOne, LeeDD - that language either came from the other webpage (scsurferwhatever.com) or it came from our own glossary, where it was copied over by either Doc or myself from the original source. Apologies to all for perpetuating misinformation, certainly was never the intent - at the time we were looking for diagrams and illustrations & the text just came along with it. If anyone wants to draft up a better entry feel free…
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cappio777,
Please! I’m surprised LeeDD was so gentle with you. That was so much voodoo, pseudo, bullshit, that I’m almost speechless. You have so much to learn, that it boarders on hopeless. Don’t take this as a personal attack, it’s an observation of how you have been led astray by misinformation. I hope you’ll be able to recover.
OUCH! I dont recall writing anything insulting to anyone on my post. I just stated what I already read and have used on my boards for years. For the longest time I have visited this forum and always though it was a friendly medium full of camaraderie. 
So…
How many small wave (chest and lower) boards have you made?
How many big wave (DOH and up) boards have you made?
And how many boards have you ridden?
I wonder where that “catch a rail” thing comes from, you still see it from time to time in various publication even from people who should know better. My theory is it has come from “catch an edge” in skiing ie when you accidently weight the out side edge of your down hill ski. Perfectly valid in skiing - I know I’ve done it often enough, but not the cause of unexpected kook outs when surfing. I reckon people have heard the term and then applied it to surfboards.
I’d assume if you really surf an all down, hard railed shortboard like the WCT guys, some cutbacks might stick.
OTOH, you could always weight the tail a little more, and it’d free right up.
I’ve always liked all down, all hard rails, but then I compensated by using a slightly narrower tail block, a flatter deck for feel and more banking angle, and thicker rails in general so it might only catch a little bit, and use the extra volume on the rails to keep catching to just the hard edge.
But then, the new boards work pretty darn well!
I am not a pro shaper by any chance but I started in 1976 glassing for a local company in puerto rico. After a year or so I started shaping my own and some of my friends started asking if I could make them some as well. This lasted for about 5 years in which I made around aproximately 400 boards. I went to college then join the airforce and that put a stop on any shaping for 10 years. I started making my own again since 1994 and have shaped around 100 for my friends and I. How many boards have I ridden? I couldnt even begin to fathom that question.
I come here because there are many good ideas and new ways of doing old things. I dont know everything and I am always willing to learn and entertain a new concept…when I give an explanation is just that… something that I have done and have learn by experience and through out studying. If I am wrong please explain me the mistake of my reasoning and of the theories I have followed. But just telling me that I am wrong and putting me down without any explanation of the concepts its not a proper way to conduct a civilized discussion. Dont you think?
OK.
YOU ARE WRONG!
Soft rails which are thick are great for holding power and to give you control in big fast waves.
Hard rails, with a sharp edge, thin and fine, are great for small slow waves, providing the board is wide enough to get up on a plane.
Hard rails, thick and blocky, actually don’t give the speed and response you need in small slow waves.
Hard rails, with a sharp edge, thin and fine, are horrid for big fast, especially big and fast waves, as it planes right up to the surface, then bounces out of the water.
Soft rails, thin and fine, are great for waves that are almost too fast to control, but don’t allow enough float for you to paddle in easily.
Now if your idea of big waves is 6’, then my theories don’t apply much at all.
Big waves can start at 8’, but more likely, range in the 10-20’ sizing.
Hi LeeDD! I always enjoy reading your posts. I am now trying to image in my head how those soft and hard rails look like, but cant really get a picture.
When you’re talking hard and soft, are you talking about the tail of the board or the overall rail?
I’ve only made seven boards and have only copied rails from other boards(modern thrusters)
but now I’ve started to think more about “each part” of the surfboard and rails are still a mystery.
Jimmy Yoshio Shibata.
Thank you so much LeeDD! Obviously I’ve been living in a time-warp. I will start using your theories from now on. Also, as Yoshio just asked, would the tail of the board benefit from a hard edgy rail or should it be soft with a high radius?
FWIW, I was at Mavericks yesterday after reading this thread and so I kept my eyes open and all the boards I saw had rails near the tail that were just like your typical thruster. From there forward they became softer and didn’t appear to be overly thick (but then maybe as much volume in the rail as a typical longboard which is still pretty substantial). It was a pretty small day at Mavs but that passes for “big waves” for most people these days.
Hey cap…Lee is correct…here’s an alterate explanation…water has a tendency to stick to objects…as the flow travels away from the board it can release or it can wrap/stick…release is faster (less drag), wrap/suck will offer more grab/control in tricky/fast/powerful surf. There’s a lot of variables when designing a rail…you can make a round soft rail with a bottom edge for release as just one variation…I like to keep it simple and use boxy edgy rails for grovel and soft for bigger surf…of all the design variations, the bottom edge/radius has the biggest impact IMO
PS - you can test and see a lot by using a good smooth flowing water hose…