Whenever I get to the beach, I always make a effort to go by all the surf shops and check the board racks. While I don’t spend much time looking at grom sized sticks, I will check everything 6’6" and up. My question is this, why have I never seen a board shorter than 9’0" have the 50/50 egg type rail contours? Is this strictly a longboard rail shape and if so why? My girlfriend gave me a G&S 9’6" as a gift (yeah, she is great!) and it has this rail shape. Didn’t like it at first, it seem to sink on me in the usual small mushy Florida slop. But, I have adjusted and it seems to work fine now and as the waves get more punch, it seems to go even better. So, whats the reason its used on longboards and not mid-lengths or shorties? Curious minds need to know. Mine too. Thanks, ed
Whenever I get to the beach, I always make a effort to go by all the surf > shops and check the board racks. While I don’t spend much time looking at > grom sized sticks, I will check everything 6’6" and up. My question > is this, why have I never seen a board shorter than 9’0" have the > 50/50 egg type rail contours? Is this strictly a longboard rail shape and > if so why? My girlfriend gave me a G&S 9’6" as a gift (yeah, she > is great!) and it has this rail shape. Didn’t like it at first, it seem to > sink on me in the usual small mushy Florida slop. But, I have adjusted and > it seems to work fine now and as the waves get more punch, it seems to go > even better. So, whats the reason its used on longboards and not > mid-lengths or shorties? Curious minds need to know. Mine too. Thanks, ed I kind of think that surf shops are reluctant to stock anything out of the ordinary,the profit margins are low and they sell what is currently in demand.I really can’t blame them for that. Find yourself a local shaper and give him your input. Also I doubt that most of the younger “production” shapers even know how to shape a 50/50 rail. Transitional short boards from the late sixties had these rails but were gone before we really had a chance to do further developing. It seems to me as if they are making a comeback.
Ed, Better hold on to that girl…even if she did hook up with chucks little brother. But come to think of it…alot can happen in 6th grade these days.
Ed, Better hold on to that girl…even if she did hook up with chucks > little brother. But come to think of it…alot can happen in 6th grade > these days. LOL, Todd’O, in case you didn’t notice I am trying to gain some useful knowledge here. If you don’t have any to offer, and I KNOW you don’t, don’t take up space that could be used for by someone with something useful to say. And it was the 2nd grade dude! laters ed
I kind of think that surf shops are reluctant to stock anything out of the > ordinary,the profit margins are low and they sell what is currently in > demand.I really can’t blame them for that. Find yourself a local shaper > and give him your input. Also I doubt that most of the younger > “production” shapers even know how to shape a 50/50 rail. > Transitional short boards from the late sixties had these rails but were > gone before we really had a chance to do further developing. It seems to > me as if they are making a comeback. CL, is Sea Islands your label? If so I saw a couple of your shapes at Tybee is week. Anyway, on shorter boards I notice the hard edge in the tail along with the tucked edge up thru the mid section. On the boards I have shpaed thus far, I have tried to put in the tucked edge and hard edge thru the tail. On the 50/50 rail, there is no edge so to speak. I thought this edge especially in the tail area was needed to help hold the rail,tail in the wave? Is this not the case? Also,if I am guessing right, CDB says you are in Ga. Would it be possible to stop in and talk shop with ya sometime? CB talks very highly of you and you would be alot closer to visit than Jax? My email is Thanks, ed
i might be way off but my understanding is a hard edge in the tail allows the rear end to release and let’s the fins do the work. basically it seems the hard edge allows the tail to be loose, not hold in the wave more. am i totally off on this guys? also, most shortboards i see, inc. the ones i’ve shaped, have basically 50/50 rails in the front 1/3rd of the board. seems like one of the most common aspects of modern shortboards is a soft forgiving 50/50 type rail. of course on a much thinner shortboard rail the bottom edge will have less radius than a thicker longboard, but most are still basically 50/50 up front. i’d love to hear some vets/pros touch on this one.
i might be way off but my understanding is a hard edge in the tail allows > the rear end to release and let’s the fins do the work. basically it seems > the hard edge allows the tail to be loose, not hold in the wave more. am i > totally off on this guys? also, most shortboards i see, inc. the ones i’ve > shaped, have basically 50/50 rails in the front 1/3rd of the board. seems > like one of the most common aspects of modern shortboards is a soft > forgiving 50/50 type rail. of course on a much thinner shortboard rail the > bottom edge will have less radius than a thicker longboard, but most are > still basically 50/50 up front. i’d love to hear some vets/pros touch on > this one. As boards are foiled thinner, they generally require somewhat fuller rails in the front 1/3 or so, to compensate for their greater tendancy to sink and/or catch. Increased rocker and a very round template also are beneficial in dealing with decreased edge volumes. Regardless of the design, that old 50/50 rail contour still has an amazing range of usefulness when applied properly. It
s all about finding a balance between every separate element from the nose to the tail, that contacts the water at speed... the best shapers magic revolves around the orchestration of conflicting forces, drag and release, a synergy of form… so that all work together. Dale
As boards are foiled thinner, they generally require somewhat fuller rails > in the front 1/3 or so, to compensate for their greater tendancy to sink > and/or catch. Increased rocker and a very round template also are > beneficial in dealing with decreased edge volumes. Regardless of the > design, that old 50/50 rail contour still has an amazing range of > usefulness when applied properly. It
s all about finding a balance between > every separate element from the nose to the tail, that contacts the water > at speed... the best shapers magic revolves around the orchestration of > conflicting forces, drag and release, a synergy of form… so that all > work together.>>> Two years ago on my birthday, May 22nd, I went to be 'Bu and while there saw Jimmy Gamboa riding a late sixties Gordon-Woods. It was in the low six foot range, flat rocker, 50/50 rails and the surfing that was taking place on that board was phenominal. No gliding, purely pushing the fin and rails at every second. It was the way I thought Fain and the boys had done it in the years before, always driving it into the next turn.
Whenever I get to the beach, I always make a effort to go by all the surf > shops and check the board racks. While I don’t spend much time looking at > grom sized sticks, I will check everything 6’6" and up. My question > is this, why have I never seen a board shorter than 9’0" have the > 50/50 egg type rail contours? Is this strictly a longboard rail shape and > if so why? My girlfriend gave me a G&S 9’6" as a gift (yeah, she > is great!) and it has this rail shape. Didn’t like it at first, it seem to > sink on me in the usual small mushy Florida slop. But, I have adjusted and > it seems to work fine now and as the waves get more punch, it seems to go > even better. So, whats the reason its used on longboards and not > mid-lengths or shorties? Curious minds need to know. Mine too. Thanks, ed check out Liddle surfboards on the net .Greg has been shaping neutral railed boards and refining them for over thirty years-boards that are in the 7’-8’ range.To Jim, sure Gamboa wasn’t riding a beat up old Liddle that day?
…It all depends on what you what out of your board,and your ability to feel the difference.Herb
So basically, 50/50’s can and are used on sub-9ft boards. But, due to current state of design, they are currently out of fashion except for LBs. And they work equally well as other rail shapes, just depends on what sort of feeling one is after? Are they superior to other shapes in any type of surf? any special performace advantages,disadvantages? And this tucked edge, hard rail thru tail, that is so often talked about is what? just something that is in fashion and so is pushed in board design? Am I making any sense? I just wanna know why is this, a vaild design, not used on more 7’-9’ boards. Is it just the fashion aspect as Cleanlines suggested? Or is it less desirable on shorter boards for some reason. ed
So basically, 50/50’s can and are used on sub-9ft boards. But, due to > current state of design, they are currently out of fashion except for LBs. > And they work equally well as other rail shapes, just depends on what sort > of feeling one is after? Are they superior to other shapes in any type of > surf? any special performace advantages,disadvantages? And this tucked > edge, hard rail thru tail, that is so often talked about is what? just > something that is in fashion and so is pushed in board design? Am I making > any sense? I just wanna know why is this, a vaild design, not used on more > 7’-9’ boards. Is it just the fashion aspect as Cleanlines suggested? Or is > it less desirable on shorter boards for some reason. ed I agree with Herb it’s all about what you expect.It also has to do with the surfers ability and the wave he usually rides. I just made a board for a friend of mine who is a fair surfer and had been riding a “big boy thruster”.I got him on to an 8’0 fat egg single fin…roll bottom in the front,flat in the middle,going in to a soft V in the tail. The rails are fat 50/50 going down in the tail.I shaped it from a 9’0’ blank and carved the old time “S” deck foil.I also set the box way back so that the tip of the fin can be a little behind the tail. Basically a 60’s clone withought the weight and more rocker. He is really enjoying it…but I am not saying that this anything new…but you would have a hard time finding it in the surf shop.
I agree with Herb it’s all about what you expect.It also has to do with > the surfers ability and the wave he usually rides. I just made a board for > a friend of mine who is a fair surfer and had been riding a “big boy > thruster”.I got him on to an 8’0 fat egg single fin…roll bottom in > the front,flat in the middle,going in to a soft V in the tail. The rails > are fat 50/50 going down in the tail.I shaped it from a 9’0’ blank and > carved the old time “S” deck foil.I also set the box way back so > that the tip of the fin can be a little behind the tail. Basically a 60’s > clone withought the weight and more rocker. He is really enjoying > it…but I am not saying that this anything new…but you would have a > hard time finding it in the surf shop. …At the turn of the 70s, I had a Chuck Dent with that same theme in a 6’-8" roundedpin.It rode great!Beachbreaks,points,the works,but it got a little hairy in bigger sucked-out stuff.Within it’s range, the “Dent” was a very friendly user board,that was afraid to be pushed around. …It was also the board my brother Ray started out on.Herb
…At the turn of the 70s, I had a Chuck Dent with that same > theme in a 6’-8" roundedpin.It rode great!Beachbreaks,points,the > works,but it got a little hairy in bigger sucked-out stuff.Within it’s > range, the “Dent” was a very friendly user board,that wasn’t afraid > to be pushed around.>>> …It was also the board my brother Ray started out on.Herb …THAT’S WASN’T…I need some waves…
So basically, 50/50’s can and are used on sub-9ft boards. But, due to > current state of design, they are currently out of fashion except for LBs. > And they work equally well as other rail shapes, just depends on what sort > of feeling one is after? Are they superior to other shapes in any type of > surf? any special performace advantages,disadvantages? And this tucked > edge, hard rail thru tail, that is so often talked about is what? just > something that is in fashion and so is pushed in board design? Am I making > any sense? I just wanna know why is this, a vaild design, not used on more > 7’-9’ boards. Is it just the fashion aspect as Cleanlines suggested? Or is > it less desirable on shorter boards for some reason. ed ed, Other ways of examining your questions might be to ask if you surf a wide range of waves and surface conditions, or mainly just one type of wave such as Malibu? Do you generally prefer waves that are so critical that they require a specific style of riding to complete them, or do you frequent slower, less powerful waves? On a superficial level, softer rails may seem to be slower than edges that are turned down, hard and tucked, or just sharp. But, as Bob McTavish wrote in an insightful Surfer Magazine article many years ago, the key to riding a board with softer rails is YOU. Integrated properly with all its other design aspects, a surfcraft with neutral rails is quite forgiving, yet can be turned harder, projected higher and will still hold in even if the fin(s) have been banked out of the water. Qualify that by adding that this type of approach benefits from a long unwinding wave with a wall… how many of today
s surfers have uncrowded, frequent access to that kind of wave? The full value of softer rails on the right board are unlocked by a forcefully dynamic, driving, carving riding style that operates best from a centered or slightly forward position on the board (rather than over the tail, ala Thruster) and a flexible, tuned high aspect ratio single fin. If you go back to the late 1960s to early 1970`s and look around, short to mid-length designs with softer rails are literally everywhere. Today, there are a few who have continued to sharpen their aim and have refined the neutral-railed surfcraft to their highest level, from a pedigree that traces back well over 30 years. Any related research should include Greg Liddle: http://www.liddlesurfboards.com/origins.html Dale
…It all depends on what you what out of your board,and your > ability to feel the difference.Herb Several years ago I decided to stop discriminating between my boards as to which one could be surfed harder. Now I just ignore whether it has a modern down rail concept or standard soft rails all around. Try to take the boards to the farthest they can be pushed to. Surf them like they are the three fin performers all the time. No limits.
My understanding (alot of it is from wakeboarding) is that what the fin does most is hold the rail of your board into the water (using the airplane-wing like foil, and the toe-in). This allows the hard rail to dig in and carve for you, withou skipping on the surface. With soft rails in the tail, it seems more fin is nessesary to give you the power and hold. So it seems to me that if you were going for a shortboard, you would want the hard rails to avoid needing to use more fin, because this would cause you some drag.Like I say, alot of my ideas come from my knowledge about wakeboards, if I’m wrong, please correct me. Thanks.
So basically, 50/50’s can and are used on sub-9ft boards. But, due to > current state of design, they are currently out of fashion except for LBs. > And they work equally well as other rail shapes, just depends on what sort > of feeling one is after? Are they superior to other shapes in any type of > surf? any special performace advantages,disadvantages? And this tucked > edge, hard rail thru tail, that is so often talked about is what? just > something that is in fashion and so is pushed in board design? Am I making > any sense? I just wanna know why is this, a vaild design, not used on more > 7’-9’ boards. Is it just the fashion aspect as Cleanlines suggested? Or is > it less desirable on shorter boards for some reason. ed The answear to your question isn’t easy but here is one shot at it 1)addressing the shop stock issue–surf shops rarely are on the cutting edge or really current/what they do stock can be called mainstream (whether that be functional or just great marketing) the cutting edge stuff by the time it makes itself to the mainstream is either disguarded(bad designs) or it has been taken to the next level while the consumer is left with either an yesterdays news design or an obsolete board but thats all about marketing—look around and make a list of what you consider the best 5-10 boards on the market in each catagory short,long, & fun and see how many of them are in shops especially on the east coast: its sad----------now 2)soft rails on short boards --eggs and semi retro type shapes did and still can function quite well w/ this rail type and some slight modifications but as with all designs w/out a working knowledge of the past and an eye to the future we all can just repeat the same mistakes we made 20-30 years ago—will you see these in shops probably not unless big money does a marketing job on the designs,but do they work ? in a nut shell hell yea!-------I think Jim Phillips said he just trys to makke all boards work reguardless of the trends—well thats the bottom line for me being raised in the Keith Paull school of design I am currently rethinking many of his old shapes ,making slight refinements and getting great feedback from those riding them, what we don’t want to do as designers/shapers is just make remakes or clones of old designs and not do any upgrades thats basically saying we haven’t learned anything new in 20-30 yrs and I hope nobody believes that—I have seen many of the current eggs coming out of Calif and I love them but those rockers won’t go that great here cause there is a big differance in Malibu and the Mayport Poles so the design works but changes must be implimented for maximum results and you won’t see either accepted by the shops or mass marketplace. I hope all that made sense and helps answear your questions.