relationship between widest point on an outline and the rocker apex

Great thread. I have been thinking of this as well.

When I stand on my 6’6" HPSB, I look at the skinny pointy nose and think it is unneccessary. If I cut it down to 5’6" and refoil the nose to keep the useable rear part relatively the same, do I line the new template up from the back of the same blank and just cut he 12" off the front of the blank? In theory I am using the same “useful” part of the original 6’6", but the rocker apex would be quite a bit ahead of center on the new shape.

The Rusty ads for the Slayer mention this idea in a 2" increment.

Hey Chip, you've hit the nail on the head with my thinking...it started off trying to get my head around 'modernising' old shapes - I've an old 70's Tiki that has an amazing outline and I've got a real passion for singlefins of that era. I love to ride them and benefit greatly from the foam due to the thicker foil.

However, my concerns were with the relationship of those old outlines with more modernised rockers that I'm using in my exsisting boards - they tend to be quite flat with a low entry. On a lot of the fish I build I use a really flattened out section in the middle of the board to get the feel of an accellerator under my front foot. This started out as an accident in the early days due to running a single concave through an already flatish rocker, since I have conciously built this into some boards.

The boards I'm making are for UK waves that are somewhat less powerful than some of the surf you guys have access to. Having said that I've been amazed at the performance of these boards in good waves - I live in Porthleven which is home to a VERY good quality reef - and they've stood out in surf to a little over head high there.

Rob's (Royal) comment questioning where the apex is when you are stood on the board makes total sense - I think I have been guilty of thinking about the board as a static object...not one that is in a constant state of change - as soon as the pitch of the board is altered the whole rocker is obviously moved - this now makes some sort of sense in clarifying what I was having toruble with...if that makes sense to anyone????

Cheers

Rich

www.thirdshade.com

By the way chip - I'm only a medical away from the visa now so the move is looking ever more likely - I hope one day we can meet up and have a surf/beer...and talk surfboards till the small hours.

 

thanks heaps for replying Rich ! 

 

..... I'm glad this thread hasn't finished yet , and you still have more to contribute !

 

 

do you have [a] photo[s] of the old boards in question , alongside maybe a shot of the blank[s] you use ?

here's a few shots of the outline of the 6'4" Bob Cooper single fin that I mentioned previously ....

zrescoop1.jpg

zrescoop2.jpg

zrescoop23.jpg

zrescoop22.jpg

Unfortunately , the partly shaped blank I was given YEARS ago , doesn't fit it ! [and I don't want to narrow / shorten the Cooper's template ...if anything , I would probably WIDEN  it , slightly ...especially in the tail area , and pod, perhaps [ making it a rounded square , or 'chopped tail , even?]  

 

so ,

 

'IF' I did go ahead with / get a modernised version of this shaped [a BIG 'IF' !] , it would need to be from a brand new , and possibly slightly ?bigger ? blank .

 

  I probably need to ride the original single fin  more , though , to see if it really DOES work well, as I might just be getting a bit sentimental about old singleys , without them [THIS one] neccessarily working that well or feeling that good , for me .

 You see, the problem also lies in the amount of TWIST in the tail , and a fair amount of the rest of the board ...a couple of the rocker [lack of] and profile shots , show this fairly clearly ....

zrescoop0a.jpg

zrescoop4.jpg

zrescoop27.jpg

the twist...

zrescoop17.jpg

zrescoop14.jpg

zrescoop19.jpg

 

 Also , although Simon commented that the 'tail was fairly wide for a single fin' , I still found that , for me at least , it didn't FEEL like it ?    I guess that may be because  he is used to narrower tailed guns , whereas I have [had] shorter , wider tailed singleys [ mine , were mainly for beachbreaks , vs HE [and his son Eli] are riding theirs ,  in some powerful , more hollow , bigger reef breaks]

Here are some shots that he took , of his son  Eli ....

 he is pictured on one of Simon's single fin boards [ though, in these shots , he is pictured on a beachie , there ] ...

425272_10150577789751219_736151218_9013538_1696037098_n.jpg

417771_10150577789371219_736151218_9013535_1641110798_n.jpg

425628_10150577788451219_736151218_9013526_1117838949_n.jpg

420815_10150577789086219_736151218_9013531_571373867_n.jpg

430992_10150577788166219_736151218_9013525_732090200_n.jpg

 Here's Simon , with the board in question ...

[ and ... no .... it AIN'T a lightning bolt , [unfortunately ] by the way ! ]

 

It would be good to have a rocker / foil profile shot of this too, I'll ask Simon via the internet when next we are in contact ...

 

 Interesting to note from the photos ...

  Eli's 'feet together' 'Chipper' stance , off the bottom , then the 'Curry ' [his surname]  'legs-apart ' thruster-style  [? near / straddling the "rocker apex " ??] stance , on the highline floater ...that's a LOT of rail to float the boat on , right there !

 

 

So , anyway ...

 

  regarding the 'old templates  / new blanks / rocker / foil thing ...

 

    [ ? maybe?]  to be continued ?  

 

..... but , maybe not !

 

 ...I already have 'too many ' boards , I think ....there are really only THREE , that I consistently ride , out of a quiver of ten [?!]

 

Also , maybe it is the [? 'tear drop- type' ? ] shape , of the 6'4" Cooper , that I am not used to

The singleys I had in the 1970s , the 1980s , the 1990s , and a couple into the new millenium ...all had  different curves . The nose not being THAT much wider than the tail , compared to the Cooper . [Wish I had made templates of every one of them , in 50/50 hindsight !]..

 

By the way ... 

  with the combination of the twist in the board , and the go pro's unfortunate distortion , the Coops 'appears' to almost be an 's-deck' ?!  [ it isn't , thankfully ! ]

 

cheers !

 

  ben

 

" By the way , Chip - I'm only a medical away from the visa now , so the move is looking ever more likely - I hope one day we can meet up and have a surf /beer ...and talk surfboards till the small hours."

 

 .... that would be GREAT if it happens one day !  hopefully  I can give you stacks of fins to play with !

cheers

Hi Ben -

Regarding 'Lost in Ether'... I agree.  It should be required reading.  And the DVD?  Required viewing.  They are complimentary and neither should be missed.

There are some segments I'm still not too keen on.  Let's just say that some people take themselves way too seriously.  It's not as if surfboard design is curing cancer if you know what I mean?

I'm willing to accept that board design and construction has come a long way since some of those boards (and comments) were made.  Then is then and now is now even though some of the old school theories apply... particularly on longboards. 

There are certain board designs, and certain people who rode those boards, that were simply in the right place at the right time, perhaps in a way that can never be repeated by anyone.  Michael Peterson at Kirra on that board may be a case in point.  He had a unique understanding of shape and design along with tremendous skill and knowledge of a wave that at times broke perfectly for him. 

The films and photos don't lie.

 

Been surfing the web this am.  Can’t find a supplier/source for the DVD or book, Lost in the Ether?

Hey Ben I absolutley love the template of the board you’ve posted - right up my street - regarding your blank issue - I faced a similar problem last week - I recently went to a Fish Fry here in Cornwall and someone dropped a Kookbox twin pin in the mix - I’d never seen one and it really caught my imagination - I’m planning one similar but will play around with bottom shape/foil etc. I drew up a template close to the original but found when I scaled it up to 6’4" for me I found the widest point to shoot up to 23"…I didnt want to compromise the outline so I’m going with it - I then found out the fish blanks I normally use will not give me the width - to fix it I’ve stuck a double koa stringer in with and inch of balsa sandwiched inbetween - works just fine. I’ll try and remeber to photograph it and post it with the template marked out on it before I shape…that bit may be delayed as I’ve just picked up a bunch of orders. I’m planning to stick a centre box in as well as plugs for MR FCS twins so I use it as a single as well.

I’ll let you know how it all progresses.

Cheers

Rich

www.thirdshade.com

To go back to my original question…the main thing I had a problem with was thinking of a board whose wide point is aft of the rocker apex - I had started to worry this would have the effect of pushing water. I think it’s my own lack of foresight here - I was imagining the waterflow - but clearly was thinking of it travelling straight with the board flat…on a flat plane of water…schoolboy error on my part - this may happen for a millisecond if you took off straight and headed towards shore before planting your bottom turn. I dont think I need worry about that millisecond.

Cheers

Rich

www.thirdshade.com

I guess the good thing about surfing [one of hundreds, actually !]  is...

 

  when we are up and riding ,

 

 we don't get too much time to overthink things ,  eh ?! ...

 

:)

 

[ " wink wink nudge nudge .... say no M O R E  eh ?  know what I MEAN ?   " etc ...]

 

  cheers

 

  ben

 

bgsurfer , check your pm's sir ... :)

Hey BG Surfer, you can get it direct from Andrew Kidman’s website/blog - http://www.andrewkidman.com

I just took delivery of my copy a couple of weeks ago. Have watched it once, but will go back for more to pick out the little gems that I just know are lurking in there.

Hey Ben
AS promised, heres the next one for me that I mentioned - drew the template up on the blank that I’ve adjusted the width on - she going to be a twin - I was originally going to do hand foiled wood core glass ons but I’m thinking its possibly going to end up with FCS MR’s as I’m toying with sticking the centre box in as well for versatility.
Cheers
Rich
www.thirdshade.com

problem with picture upload…

…for the record:

CI Slater s 90s success boards had the rocker apex behind the WP or not in the middle.

How many inches behind wide point are we talking about? A inch or two? Good find -reverb!

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m going to say: generally the apex is @ center. Then we can move wide point forward, back center, or center. May be shapers from tge fifties or sixties or whenever would know?

 Get yourself a long section of a channeled aluminum 
6 foot should do it. Use the Bill Barnsfield method to measure rocker. This will also work to identify the apex of the rocker. Now with a shaper or tee squire find the wide point of the board. A few pencil marks to find the relationship of rocker to wide point. Take measurements on thickness with calipers at at least 3 points nose mid and tail find the thickest point of the Board. Take notes. size of board style of board shaper or whatever else you deem necessary. Such as shaper blank used date board was built. notes on performance and type wave that is best for this Board. If you want to get even more detailed take photos. 10 or so boards should give you some good insight into rocker in relation to wide point and foam distribution.
While we are on this subject has anyone ever scanned one of Peterson’s Boards? That would be an interesting project. I would also like to see scans and numbers on early Wayne Lynch boards. In The search for something new I feel we have tossed out some good stuff from older boards That could be modernized into something special and now just a romantic trip down memory lane.

Artz - good tips! I’m going to shape a ‘pulled in fish’ as I used to own and it was good enough to handle most central Calif conditions. Anyway, I think I’ll set apex at center, and put wp forward center 2" as a Friend of mine who surf’s well says wp is usually 2" forward center.

Artz - the rocker stick I used and located apex -which is dead center of my blank. I got that. But I think I’ll push wp forward a few notches, maybe 2"? I’m thinking it’ll probably be a gas pedal?

Where are you from? If you are near santa cruz, or Monterey perhaps we could shape a board together, or hit the surf!? I’m cool w sharing tools, trying boards etc…t c

Wide point forward on a fish at 2" sounds about right.   Personaly I have been enjoying boards with wide point back of center with more hips and multi fin set ups Boards around 8 foot to 9’6"  Modren pig boards. Just my thoughts and stealing from the Wayne Lynch and Mctavish transition board style templates. 

care to post up some pics?

Artz- ty for sharing the info! I’ll get the rocker stick. Btw ace hardware has 3/4" window track that’s aluminum… not sure if it’s 3/4", but my big old finger pokes right in there…

Artz - right when thrusters came out, I was stuck on twins or single fin boards, but a yr went by and a friend let me try his stretch thruster…I got a few fun rides at a point break…the next week I shaped a five nine thruster and I put the wp 1" behind center. Apparently the board worked real well. Don’t lol too hard, but I was 16 and just used a surform and block…and hand sanded the rails. Lol. I still cant believe I sold it for $140.00! I do remember I also had to flip the tail up a bit as I had to chop 6+" off a old water logged blank we scavenged…

Pig boards work very well! I was surprised when I reluctantly tried my friends Jacob’s lb…It had a substantial kicked up tail also…