Rocker Apex Revisited

I felt the need to start a new thread so the “Is Rocker Proportional” thread wouldn’t continue to morph into something that Deathfrog didn’t intend. It seemed to be going off on a apex tangent.

I responded in the thread and mentioned the rocker apex as a way of visualizing the rocker contour in general. I even said “Just for fun. This is my interpretation”. I still stand by my wordz as the way “I” relate to it. Whether that is correct or not, I’m sure I will hear opinions. For me it is. But my point is that the apex seemed to keep getting refered to, over and over again. I feel it is an important factor in the rocker flow, and the way the rocker functions in general. This web page show some rockers, and you can see that they are not at the same point. – i.e. at center.

I’m sure that many people will disagree, but I hope everyone will restrict their comments to constructive critisizm. I welcome comments and points of view from everyone. I’d like to hear your thoughts.


I was in a friend’s shop a year or two ago, (Krokus), and he was telling me about a long discussion about rocker apex on Swaylocks. I told him at the time my opinion, and that is what the sketch demonstrates now. But that was before I had re-registered on the new swaylocks. – Hence “revisited”.

First, when talking about the rocker apex, you need some point of common reference. The way I see it is in this sketch (from the other thread). Right or wrong, I don’t know. This just seems logical to me. Or if nothing else, the ‘only’ way that seems logical – and that is, “if” you feel the need to define it. No matter which way you might turn the board, or how off level the board laying on the shaping stands might be, the point (or ‘plane’) of reference stays the same.


Ok, all that BS said, what does everyone think about the rocker apex? (Theory or real?) Location important or not? A factor at all? What is your opinion?

Ozzy

GO ASTROS!!!

I intuitively feel that rocker apex is intricately linked to the board outline (Wide Point) and foil. I don’t think you can consider it ourside these factors. Even at that I think you have to look at it in 2 situations. (1) Paddling and Wave Catching and (2) When planing (On the flat and on a rail).

I’m still trying to make sense of Apex X Foil X outline in the context of Greg’s Theory of Pitch. Michael Peterson, I seem to recall felt that the position of the rocker Apex was the key to the boards he rode.

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I intuitively feel that rocker apex is intricately linked to the board outline (Wide Point) and foil. I don’t think you can consider it ourside these factors.

I agree. I never meant to question that. I’m just trying to narrow down all of the components to a single concept. As for the other things you mentioned, I’ll leave that to popular opinion.

{Edit} Spelling and grammar corrections. …again. (Dang it.) {/ediT}

Yep - good idea to start new thread…

Your diagram, shows the apex of that rocker nicely…at least when the board’s in that orientation…move the tail down and the position of that apex changes…so apart from sighting it… how do you measure it?

There is no such thing as a rocker apex , at least in the context we would like to think.

You can take a 1\2 circle and tilt it 3 diffrent ways and you’ll have 3 diffrent apexes. Same with a surfboard. What was the apex in one position now is different. The boards rocker didn’t physically change, only the positioning to 90 degrees.

If you really want to witness this, go buy a mason’s line level. It’s a small level about 2 inches long that attatches to a string. We won’ be using a string for our application.

Set your board bottom up on your rack. slide the level up the board until the level is showing level. This is the apex when the board is in this position.

Now, put a block either under the nose or the tail to change the pitch of the board. Do the level again. You’ll find the “apex” is different.

The “apex” is really just the way the rocker flows nose to tail.

If you really do want to figure it out, go back to the rocker stick on center method, you can measure points 6 inches from center towards nose and tail. If those dimensions differ it will be apparent how the rocker flows. Sometimes the diffrence is REALLY small, so it isn’t foolproof.

Simply looking at the rocker with the board tilted sideways for me is still the best method of determining flow. “The eye doesn’t lie”.

aloha, C

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Yep - good idea to start new thread…

Your diagram, shows the apex of that rocker nicely…at least when the board’s in that orientation…move the tail down and the position of that apex changes…so apart from sighting it… how do you measure it?

. . . or measure from the actual center point of the board. Whatever your preference is.

cantellya is correct the apex in relation to your diagram is the apex to the relation where the board sits on the racks. It’s not accurate to the true apex in relation to both top and bottom rockers in the same location.

Pursuit of accurate rocker dimensions is a daunting task, which is the reason why I have not come across other shapers that measures in this method. I have found that both the top and bottom rockers need to be on the same plane. It would be like build a house with a crooked foundation, sure it looks square, but in relation to what?

I have found the most simple and accurate way to register rockers manually is to measure the true apex by having the deck nose and tail tips at the 0 plane in horizontal plane this is the level foundation to start measuring the rocker. Once the nose and tail are in relation to 0 you can then start to measure the true apex of the bottom rocker by introducing a second horizontal plane at the apex of the bottom rocker.

Using this method will maintain accurate rockers in relation to the entire foil of the shape. Repeated rockers will be much more easily maintained. From this point all areas of rockers can be tiangulated.

Simple, but as Thelonius said, “Simple ain’t easy.”

How about this? Mark the midpoint of the length of the board. At some point, say 6" on either side off the midpoint place a 1" thick blocks of wood. Set your straight edge on the blocks and measure down to the board at the nose and tail or other equally spaced points, subtract the 1" height of the blocks. These dimensions give a fairly uniform and accurate way to measure the rocker.

After more thought. Instead of subtracting 1", subtract the dimension from the straight to the midpoint of the board. This would be more accurate.

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cantellya is correct the apex in relation to your diagram is the apex to the relation where the board sits on the racks. It’s not accurate to the true apex in relation to both top and bottom rockers in the same location.


The sketch shows the relationship of the apex to the flat part of the deck of the board in the middle section. The key phrase is ‘parallel to the deck’. No matter how you turn the board, which way it is laying on the racks, how out of level it might be, the apex stays the same. Because you are referencing it from the board, not a balancing point, or something else. It is just an imaginary plane for reference and visualization, to arrive at a consistant and defineable apex point.

Please continue the apex discussion. Whether it is necessary, or even exists, I’ll let you guys decide that.

Does the apex make a difference? Well I have tried this with a little help from the good old APS3000 and a master shaper at the controls and by leaving everything constant but only moving the apex of the rocker backwards and forwards. I am assuming here that apex of rocker is the point outside of a natural curve where the rocker definitively turns back the other way. The Pipedream link you made shows you these in exagerated form to highlight that with different apex point.

OK what does this achieve? I found that moving the apex back towards your feet allows you to stay in one position longer and by simple weight transferrence affect the speed a board travels. This is Michael Petersons theory to a tee, instead of running up and down the board to stay in the barrel for 50 seconds at Kirra he simply leant back onto the rear facing side of the apex of the rocker and deeper he become. When he decided he was sick of the pit and wanted to do one of those History making cutbacks he leant forward to exit. He said it “was like cheating!”

What are the negatives? To push the apex further back is to increase the leading edge of the rockers resistance to catching waves and building initial speed. To move it forward may aid the catching waves part but you will be chasing the sweetspot up the board the whole time to maintain speed.

SO… Apex is real but you have to remember that subtlety is the key here to affect any boards performance and that rocker apex can be both increased with vee’s or reduced at stringer with concaves. The way the rails then react changes as well. Infinite combinations all equally affected by fin template and positioning in an equally infinite manner.

Rockers, Apexes and bottom contours is an in depth science. I love Al Merricks site where he has the videos explaining the rockers in relation to his designs. No shaper will tell you they have mastered this science and every year as surfing is pushed further to oblivion by the elite of the sport the rockers are forced to progress with them and we all learn a little more…

ozzy, that would be fine if the deck rocker is at true 0 “Z” plane and flat. This method is not accurate due to deck rockers are never perfectly straight. And by arbitrarily making a straight line with out any relation to other fixed reference points will result in inaccurate measurments by which there is no foundation.

Sure you can use that method if you want to measure just the curve, but it isn’t accurate if you are trying to relate it to a specific shape. Remember shaping in rockers is in relation to the entire shape, top and bottom.

Aloha! An often overlooked, or maybe, underthought aspect of bottom rocker theories, is the amount of curve in the area where your front foot is on the board. This is the point where the water first hits the board. Too much bend ahead of this spot will be pushing water with weight-on. More back will create that ‘teeter-totter’ effect. Smooth rocker flow seems to me to be the top priority. The apex will naturally find it’s place in relation to the rider’s stance, in most cases. Aloha…RH

Sorry tried to repost a cleaned up pic but it was deleted and I couldn’t replace the image. But this image in response to the ealier post with the missing image. Not sure if it’s making sense?!

Bing DN Noserider deck and bottom rocker indexed at 0 “Z” plane (horizontal red line) and both deck and bottom rocker measurements taken from this point. Also accurate foil thickness can be measured in this way.

I am not going to add much to this discussion, which isn’t to say I don’t think it is very important, but ‘apex’ is technically only at one point on a curve - the “peak” or high point. I read some professional shaper explain it well, some thing like this. If you turn the board over, take a long enough straight edge, place it on the bottom of the board, parallel to and over the stringer, and find the point where the straight edge is the same “height” from the nose and tail - this is the apex/peak of the curve of the bottom of the board. Plain and simple. I have a board w/@ 8" nose rocker, and 2" tail, when measured the traditional way from the center (which is probably why most shapers do it this way, the center is a fixed point to work from) - when I measured my board to work on a new board off it, and was trying to figure out how much material I would need to cover the project, I had to look at the apex and the 6" rocker on each end before I could cut foam and wood.

I only say all this to say what has been said here many times, we need an agreed upon language before we can really discuss things, and ‘apex’ has a definition. Keep up the good work. Taylor

In Ozzy’s method of looking at rocker in relation to the parallelness of the deck, does the “apex” simply equal the point where the board is its thickest? Looks like it from the diagrams and explanations.

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Sorry tried to repost a cleaned up pic but it was deleted and I couldn’t replace the image. But this image in response to the ealier post with the missing image. Not sure if it’s making sense?!

You have a good point, but I have a question about your method. – If you were to extend the nose a couple of inches (keeping the same bottom curve), or just give the nose tip a little extra flip, where the only affected area would be the end 4 or 5 inches of the nose, that would change the apex point quite a bit, (maybe by as much as 1 or 2 inches or more), but the board would still ride exactly the same as it does now, but with a very difference apex point wouldn’t it?

I was trying to define a point that would stay the same despite small variations like I mentioned that wouldn’t effect the overall performance or functionality of a particular shape. Therefore, the apex point stays consistent to the most funtional part of the board, or rocker. No?

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‘apex’ is technically only at one point on a curve - the “peak” or high point. I read some professional shaper explain it well, some thing like this.

I only say all this to say what has been said here many times, we need an agreed upon language before we can really discuss things, and ‘apex’ has a definition. Keep up the good work. Taylor

Thanks!

Yes there are many more factors involved, and I am relating to only one. But as you said, to improve the science, we first must agree upon a language and consistently defineable points from which to measure or reference more points, in order to further refine our results.

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ozzy, that would be fine if the deck rocker is at true 0 “Z” plane and flat. This method is not accurate due to deck rockers are never perfectly straight. And by arbitrarily making a straight line with out any relation to other fixed reference points will result in inaccurate measurments by which there is no foundation.

Sure you can use that method if you want to measure just the curve, but it isn’t accurate if you are trying to relate it to a specific shape. Remember shaping in rockers is in relation to the entire shape, top and bottom.

True. I don’t think perfection can be achieved on a continuous curving object (board/rocker) to be ridden in a continuously moving medium (ocean/waves). But we can try to get as close as we can?

If we can come to some kind of consensus on the first apex point some where around the mid point of the eliptical arc, then we can expand and build on that to include the whole continuously flowing curve that is the rocker. And then on up the ladder.

But, first things first.

Others have touched on these same issues so I apologize if it repeats or gets redundant.

An apex is nothing more than the highest point. In this case the highest point, in the rocker curve, on the bottom of the board. Depending on how you rotate the board and then fix it in space the Apex could be anyplace on the curve all the way from the nose to the tail. Of course, this pretty much makes the term Apex irrelevant as the term cannot apply to a single location along the rocker curve unless we first establish an absolute way that the rocker curve, is going to be located in space. That is way I have been stressing the need for a cooperative measuring system.

In my view there are only 2 logical ways to “hang” the rocker curve in space.

1 is to use the center of the curve, and from there establish the tangent line and then level that line to a level horizon. In this method the center will become the Apex, not only on this board but also on any board that is measured using this method.

2 is to scribe a level horizon line and then place the bottom rocker curve on it with the ends of the curve just resting on the horizon line. Airfoils of all sorts are often viewed this way. In this method the Apex will float all over the place depending on 3 factors.

A. How much nose rocker or how much tail rocker the board has.

B. How thick the nose beak is or the tail tip is.

C. How that rocker curve is proportioned.

It quickly becomes clear that between these 2 methods, # 1 is far superior because it creates an absolute system of measurement that will consistently reproduce the same results regardless of the actual character of the curve being measured or who, when or where it is being measured. Including what the rest of the boards design features are.

Method #2 cannot do this. Especially since the bottom curve in a board is also attached to the deck and the thickness of the nose and tail. If you try to lay the board on its deck and then align a LEVEL rocker stick on the bottom, to find the Apex, that Apex and where it lands along the curve will be dictated by the nose and tail rockers and thicknesses.

The whole point of measuring rockers is so that we can know what we are riding. If we know what it is, we can then alter what it is, and then learn what the effects of those alterations are, both visually and functionally. But without being able to establish a common standard of measurement for determining what it is, we can’t share the data we collect and we can’t know if we have actually altered it. Nor can we know if the differences we feel are related to the changes we have made or if they are due to some other changes that we don’t even realize we have made because we don’t have a common method of measuring them and accounting for them.

Having a reasonably accurate measuring system that is commonly shared and agreed to is the only way to sensibly discuss board design and be able to acquire some kind of peer review of the theories and results. Even if we could all ride each other’s boards in the same surf, we still need a common language and measurement system, to be able to discuss them, suggest changes, make those changes and actually know that we have made the intended changes.

Some have suggested that it is not reasonable to discuss or measure rocker without also considering the deck. I disagree. The rocker curve is simply what it is. It is not dependent upon the deck for its existence. It is a line scribed in space and it can be accurately measured and defined without ever knowing what the deck is going to look like.

Now before everyone freaks out about the statement above, let me assure you that I fully realize that, in action, the deck and bottom are intrinsically connected and the total function of a board must also take into consideration not only the bottom but also the deck and all other features of the board. But at the risk of sounding rude, we all know and recognize this don’t we? So lets not waste time going there. Once we agree to a common measurement system, we can get into the performance effects of altering those measurements and how they interact with other aspects of the boards design and construction.

More later