round tail twin finner?

General Discussion
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Then I made some progress with a Twinzer setup.

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Ideally the front fins could have been made smaller. In fact I placed the boxes such that I could cut down the longboard side bites to be the correct size and therefore the correct distance and overlap. Not got round to it yet.

This fin configeration seemed to create speed coming out of the bottom turn something I think the Twinzer does better than a twin fin… Much more like the feeling of a fish with good bursts of speed from the front foot. Surfed it quite big and felt secure not surprising considering the fin area. Turned fast and well.

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Got the 4wfs Keel and put more boxes in. As I didn’t have the HD biscuits recommended for the bigger fins I installed with epoxy and undercut the glass. I have since had no problems using big fins even on the standard box install.

Mmm starting to feel very nice. Starting to get that recognizable fish feel which leads me to believe its mostly due to the fins and not the outline shape of the board. I started pulling the fins further back than I would be able to on a deep swallow and felt I could use the front foot for forehand speed and also push really hard off of the back foot for turns. Not quite good enough back hand so on with the experiments…

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This id where it gets good. I pulled a big set if MR type twin fins way back so they almost overhung the back of the board. Yeah superb driving off the back foot on backhand waves but a really wishy washy forehand. No drive no speed.

So I added some front fins in the front quad position and that brought back the frontside surfing with a little hit to the back side. Unfortunatelly I lost a little of the buttery fish feel. In order to get that back I did this…

These are front turbo fins fron my canard set. Home made copies of my Lokbox originals. I think in DVD copying you are allowed to make copies if they are backups of ones you have already bought. These are my backup Turbo canards. Full cresit to Pavel and Lockbox and Rainbow fin company. They are canted out even more ( around 30 degrees ). Now I have good speed backhand and forehand whilst retaining the unique fish feel and being super turney off the back foot. I love this thing. The absence of a tail crack means I can push my fins way back ( Thanks Griff I noticed your Twin fins have the fins further back) and still get my back foot fully over the fins. Way better control and power in the turns and holds so well in bigger stuff. As to the diamond well who knows if its worth having. I can stall for barrels really easily but I think the accepted idea of a diamondtail surfing like a smaller board because the rail line is shortened is hogwash (sorry Al). Well Ok perhaps I didn’t design it right but it feels like a 5’ 3" board not a 4’11".

So I hope I haven’t hijacked too much. I think NON fish tailes are worth pursuing. A roundtail I think would work well.I would be interested in how it felt to stall it by sinking the tail. I would thin the tail area starting around the front fins if I was making another.I found that it is necessary to pull fins back towards the tail to get a bit of drive back. Maybe a normal fish works by pushing off the fins and the partially submerged tail points. I havent felt bereft of the longer rail-line either and can pick a high line on a wave.

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Lots of other combinations got tried with different fins , different toe in and also cant. I used the 4wfs for this purpose and made some sets of fins when I couldn’t buy them. The idea of big fins at the rear and canted fins forward reminded me of another fin combination so this is the next stage before another shape and more trials.

I look forward also to swieds balsa fish update as he has a round tail and I am interested in where he puts his keel fins.

Maybe I should have started another thread. Sorry too late. Hope this is of use.

Mark

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First off, nice board. And don’t worry at all about hijacking. Alternative fish-like shapes are of interest here. I’m just trying to make an informed decision.

Have you seen the Biscuit (on Channel Islands sight); I’d post a shot, but I don’t know how to do that. Anyway, the outline looks pretty similar to your board there; except the nose is narrower and tail seems to be pulled in a bit more into a round tail (you said you would pull the tail a bit more if you could do it over).

I like the options that your board seems to present. I’m not sure that I’m all that ready to go twinzer yet; I think I’d like to try that sort of fin setup in my quad before I have a whole new board shaped for it. Also, I think that for me, two side lokbox plugs and bahne box in the middle will be plenty to play around with - too much and I get confused and overwhelmed by the possibilities.

One thing’s for sure, i’m starting to get a better sense of the sort of outline that I’m looking for. (I read that other thread - very helpful). I like the idea that a non swallow tail allows you to go shorter since you can put the back foot farthur back without worrying about sliding off the back (really hurts when I slide over my leash plug on my quad). And a shorter board with a curvy outline means a shorter turning radius - so part of my original problem would be solved. Of course, a curvier outline could mean less speed; so, I’m thinking of doing some concaves with a slight vee out the back to channel water through without making the board too stiff. Then, I can play around with the fin setups a little to correct any performance quirks that might arise.

Of course, nothing’s set until I make it down to my shaper’s shop (Dave - blue earth surfboards - shameless plug - he’s the nicest guy ever). So, anymore ideas are certainly welcome.

Cheers.

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Biscuit.

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Hi! - I’m totally interested in this board!!, but thought I’d weigh in. I don’t think Rob M. surfed that smooth AT ALL in the video. I think his style is pretty clean on the singles, but on the biscuit he’s choppy, disconnected, and nurses his turns. For what it’s worth - disclaimer: clearly R.M. is a flippin’ surf star, and can rip almost any old biscuit, BUT, he can do way better. I can imagine a longer board like this, eggy and more rocker for loopy loosy goosey surfing - maybe even do it as a 2 + 1 thing with the fin way far forward for a '79 Buttons & Liddel type 'o trip!

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Yeah. I respectfully disagree. I think I can see your point, but I think that during part of the footage he seems to be just testing things out and goofing around, but his actual turns look pretty good and smooth to me. Looks like the board might have released out of the turns before he was expecting on a couple of turns, but I don’t think that would be a problem in the type of surf I’ll be surfing, and it could be fixed by messing with the fins a bit. But the fact that he rips on everything should be taken into account; I agree with your point there - I just don’t think he was in competition mode or even video footage mode.

However, I doubt that I’ll go 5’2" or 4" like the board in the video, probably 5’6" to 8". Aside from that the rails in the video look a bit too bulky to me.

And I do plan to try the board as a 2+1 - I think I explained the fin box set up in an earlier post. But I probably won’t do this until trying it in something hollower and fast (not all that common); I tried out a 6’ buttonsy single fin for a while, and it didn’t work all that well around here until there was a little size and push.

I’m fairly used to the twin finner fin set up, and I like it - just don’t think that the outline on my twin finner, which is straighter than curvy, allows me to do tighter turns in the pocket (and by pocket I mean that semi-mushy section just next to the quickly crumbling white water on a wast high choppy wave).

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Fredman - I concur - he’s figuring the board out. I too want one! Let me know how yours ends up for sure. Here’s what I’m riding now - it’s a 6’4" Hull “revisited” by John Mel. 21" wide, sort of S deck. I have it set up with Vectors and a 5.5" Rusty Flex-tip in the middle. It really flys! It goes rail to rail like a thruster, but then you can trim forward and get the hull effect of super smooth glide. It cuts back very smooth too.

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That board sound like a lot of fun too. All of my center fins are bigger than that, but I’m thinking I should try to find one about 5" to 5.5" (probably a flex fin like yours) to play around with - maybe using the front set of fins from my canards with it.

I’m going to talk to the shaper this coming week and hopefully get the ball rolling here, and I’ll be sure to post pictures (if I can figure that out), measurments, and reviews with the various fins. Of course, this might all take a while since it’s pretty much gonna be flat for the next few months down here.

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Fredman - sorry this is so late, I couldn’t upload pics with safari, so I switched to mozilla. Here’s the board I was talking about. Hope you get some waves when you get your new stick. We’ve actually had a pretty good spring here.

Cheers!


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O.K. finally got the board. 5’6"X20 1/2" Biscuit sort of outline - maybe a 1/4 to 1/2 inch wider than what’s stated on the CI website. Has the two side lokbox fin plugs and the short single fin center box. I’ve got the rainbow RBT twin fins and a true ames small 3.5" box fin retro-fitted with about a 2" overhang.

We had some small waves the last few days, and I had those days off. So, here’s what happened.

Yesterday: Knee high/ choppy - decided to start with just the twin fins in. The board was incredibly loose, almost too loose at times, but the board, predictably, has a very nice and really short turning radius. It doesn’t seem to have the quick acceleration feeling of my 5’9" quad, but the board doesn’t feel slow. The turns are really smooth; I think someone on this thread told me this would happen - it was noticeably smooth; however, the person also said that the tail shape would force the turns to be more drawn out - I didn’t find this to be the case - the board whips around on a dime, but it did spin out on me a few times, and I noticed that it was tricky to maintain speed when surfing off the back foot. The board does not have much drive with only the twin fins in; however, it does seem to like to surf on rail (mostly in the trim as it was too small to really lay into the rail). It feels really smooth on floaters.

Today: thigh high w/ occasional bigger sets/ choppy: started off with the twin fin set up again; I think that the board worked a little better with the twin setup in slightly bigger waves with more face - perhaps I was getting used to it though and correcting myself - still couldn’t really drive off the bottum though - mostly just tried turns after climbing to the top of the wave within the rhythm of pumping down the line.

In the afternoon, I came back with the trailer in (set to about 3 3/4" from the tail - the fin cluster looks tighter than a standard thruster cluster). The board didn’t seem to lose much of the turning radius (I was afraid that it would), but it had considerably more drive off the bottum, and I was able to project into some decent little turns. The board seems to have what I’m calling “pop”; after digging in a rail and releasing it, the board comes off the bottum really quickly if I need it to. The board seems to be a lot more responsive than my quad - I can control the board’s speed fairly easily by placing my weight on my front foot or stall by kicking back. It really likes to come up for a quick snap right off the drop which is perfect considering that’s kind of what I was going for (quick bottum turn in smaller surf). It’s surprisingly stable for how small it is.

Some highlights of the session: nearly executed a cheater five (a new trick to keep it fun), some soul-arch bottum turns into complete closeout slop, a fully wrapped backside slash on a section that was no more than a foot on the face.

Overall, I don’t think that the board performed as well as my quad would have in these tiny conditions, but that’s okay, it was still a blast.

On some of the bigger (nearly waste high) waves, the board really worked well, probably better than my quad. I’m really excited about the short turning radius and the overall smooth fluid feel of the board, and I think it’s going to go really well in the waste to chest high range, which is what I really got it for.

There’s a chance for a little north swell in a few days; hopefully, it’ll pan out so I can give the board a go in some fun sized lefts.

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Sounds very cool! - post up some pics of that biscuit!

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Somehow I missed being one of the first 2572 views on this thread but

wanted to bump it up to add a little…

In 1971-2, I was a kid garage shaper and St. Augustine was my beach.

There was a guy named Frank Emerson who made really nice boards out of a

classic little barn out back of his house. He was nice enough to sell resin and

cloth to kooks like me, and he made the hottest boards in town. (this was

before John Lucas took over)

Emerson’s round tail twin fins were ridden by almost all the local rippers at that time.

They forever validated the combination in my impressionable mind. These were full disc

(no wing) tails, and the curve in the outline forced him to move the fins up the rails a bit,

where the California twins had big square tails with the fins right on the corners.

Dusty Welch took one and put 8" high aspect ratio single fins in each box and absolutely

OWNED everything between Jacksonville and Flagler Beach.

Mike

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Forgot to add that Frank Emerson moved to Australia about 73-74.

Somebody out there might know what happened after that…

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Webber’s twin fin seems to adopt the same idea of 2 single fins off to the side. Incidentally, Greg Webber is Australian…

great thread everybody, I loved to see the fat diamond tailed fish and all the fins configuration.

I do agree that the main thing about the fish outline/butt crack thing is that the two pins (or at least the one on the face) get wrapped in water locking into the turn, to me the deep butt crack has the same stabilizing function of a trailer fin: it keeps the tail from skidding around uncontrollably.

thanks guys, very inspiring

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I’ve been riding this board for a bit now, and I’ve tried some new fin setups in some decent waves and thought I’d give another report.

A few months ago, I was riding the board with the twin fins and the small trailer, and I was sort of getting bored with it.

So, I decided to try some keels just to see what would happen; I got some pavel keel haulers (the symmetrically foiled ones) and threw them in there.

The board flies; I haven’t returned to the other twin setup since I got the keels. Lots of drive - really nice feel on a backside snap.

If I had to do it all over, I’d consider just glassing on a set of keels: I like them so much, I have to force myself to take them out to try something else.

I’ve also tried a 6.25" rusty flex fin in the center with two small sidebites. I had success with that setup in some steeper waves; turns were more swoopy, and it really took off in steep sections but was a bit sluggish in flatter sections (probably the expected results).

Next project for the shaper…I’m gonna get a 6’ X 13.5ish"(nose) X 20.5ish"(widepoint at center) by 15"(tail) board with the same fin set up for the same sort of versatility in waves in the chest to slightly overhead range.

(I’d post pictures, but I don’t have a digital camera).

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fredman,

i know it’s been awhile since this chat was going on, but i’m shaping/glassing a 6’2 round tail twin keel. Since you seem to really like the keels, I was wondering what the placement of yours were relative to the tail. I was thinking of placing the trailing edges about 11" up from the tail. Thoughts?

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Well, the biscuit-y board that I ride is 5’6". So, I’m not sure how much this info will help, but I’ve got my keels (pavel keel haulers) at about 8 1/2" up from the tail right now; I think that the fin boxes have about 1/4" toe - maybe 3/16" - can’t remember exactly, but they’re definitely not straight. This works really well for me in average surf around here (waist high range - mostly mushy), and on the few good days (head high range) that I’ve used it with this set up, it’s worked really well - very, very smooth turns.

I’m no expert on fins, but I think that 11" is too far up even on a 6’ 2". I do recommend going with a fin system that allows you to move the fins around a bit - so you can find what works best for you. I’ve also had success with that board set up as a 2 + 1 with a 6 1/2" rusty flex fin and longboard side bites. Something like probox’s versa plane system would go really well and allow a lot of fin play. Although, if you’re set on the keels and don’t feel the need for playing around with fin set ups, I can’t blame you; the keels have worked the best for me in that board.

Cheers,

Russ

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