wow Bert - loads of really useful info and ideas…learnt loads from your excellent answers …
I’m currently trying to draw up a template to make a copy of your 6 9 but I’m finding it tricky to curve the template smoothly to the 18" point (you mentioned in an earlier post that this point is 18.5" wide) and then draw it in smoothly to the 12" point - I’ll keep on trying. - Do you carry the thickness into the tail like this to compensate for your high entry rocker?
i think your summary of the changes you should make and why are spot on …
when i looked at your current board and checked dimensions , this was my first impression …
a board that is fast by itself … paddles in easy has good carry and picks up speed without much rider input , but because of the width and rocker carrying forward feels stiff to trim , giving a long drawn out speed trim rather than a top to bottom speed trim , will catch the front rail on the way back down if you push it to tight under the lip , cant get the first pump in quick especially on your backhand , if the waves are real fast off the take off and peel quick you dont seem to get the desired speed from the first pump and the fast peeling wave gets away from you , but if you do get in early enough the board will really wind up after the 3rd pump and your flying along then nothing slows it down , you get heaps of projection in the turns but that in turn keeps your best surfing out on the open face , does long floaters but doesnt come down as quick as youd like sometimes , will still do a tight hack but if the wave bowls out to much on the way down can get sticky in the bottom , works best in open face waves with plenty of room to move , doesnt like the pocket in under shoulder high waves unless you get a really good approach at a clean section thats not to sucky , can get a little drifty in the back end when hard on the whole rail …
But here are my concerns….
1 How the planshape affects a fluid rider’s style….how would Parko ride it?
the planshape of our board can affect our style , a drawn out plan shape will give a drawn out clean style , we may think we have a fluid clean drawn out style but in reality our board makes us surf that way …a board needs to be surfed according to its design , we cant make a board adjust to our style , we must adjust to the board , some boards will make us surf average others will make us rip …
2 loss of projection on rail (too much curve in the outline? My thought is to flatten the outline curve in the center a bit)
good choice , a straighter section between the feet can give us the projection we want when leaning evenly on both feet , but can also hinder the looseness of our trims , and give that drawn out feeling again , dont run the same theme with outline and rocker at the same point of the board , that will over empthasise a certain feeling …
3 pro/con effect of using off-the-shelf fins templates (currently using big Rusty fronts and medium center)
most off the shelf templates are fine , the foils are the biggest downfall still …
running thicker foils , camber and thickest part forward will deliver a looser feel and the ability to attack sections harder and maintain drive out of turns …
4 using correct rail profile/edge/volume along the entire length of board so that it maximizes both release and neutrality (sounds almost too good to be true)
that gives us a predictable rail …
still one of the worst design features to date is the lack of understanding of the rail and how it releases water …
the all so common hard tail soft front rail is notorious for being responsible for making us slide out in the bottom turn if we push hard while right on the rail …
our front rail is not releasing water as well as our hard edged tail rail , it comes back to the centre of pressure wanting to always be behind the centre of mass principle …
front rail slows down coz of poor release the rest of the board feels like it wants to over take the nose and the back end starts to let go , this feeling is exagerated even more if our rocker and outline place the front rail in the water earlier in a turn …
theres more , but most of this stuff addresses your main concerns …
sorry for the late reply . been hell busy lately doing nothing …normal routine is out coz of school holidays …to much surfing and sandboarding , short trips away and enjoying life …
hope that helps
regards
BERT
"4 using correct rail profile/edge/volume along the entire length of board so that it maximizes both release and neutrality (sounds almost too good to be true)
that gives us a predictable rail …
still one of the worst design features to date is the lack of understanding of the rail and how it releases water …
the all so common hard tail soft front rail is notorious for being responsible for making us slide out in the bottom turn if we push hard while right on the rail …
our front rail is not releasing water as well as our hard edged tail rail , it comes back to the centre of pressure wanting to always be behind the centre of mass principle …
front rail slows down coz of poor release the rest of the board feels like it wants to over take the nose and the back end starts to let go , this feeling is exagerated even more if our rocker and outline place the front rail in the water earlier in a turn …
theres more…"
glad youre back…youre description on my current ride is dead nuts accurate but here’s the last unturned stone…
so what’s needed is better rail balance between front and rear…I’ve understood for a while about release as you describe but how do you implement better balance…do you:
a. keep the rail tuck relatively even and vary the edge radii
or
b. keep the edge radii even and vary the rail tuck???
…speaking wrt high-speed small wave shralper shortie Im guessing its “b”…thoughts?
low apex , no tuck in the tail 1/3 of the board , dont go over 1/2" tuck , keep a tucked edge all the way to nose …
rail apex will sneak closer to the deck as you approach the nose …
that will give good release the length of the rail but still keep the front a little forgiving without making it bog …the better release our front rail gets the less chance we have of doing a spin out when hard on the rail …
regards
BERT
thanks bert
this is really good info.
I’ve found the same problem in my two “magic” boards…
The floatation and down the line drive of my 7’0" Parmenter Vector is great but it catches off the top because of the full outline. The diamond helps if you jam the tail but it’s not a carve:
http://forum.surfermag.com/photopost/data/505/8784PICT0283_edited-med.JPG
On the otherhand my Bushman fish turns on a dime and has alot of speed but get’s a little wobbly at high speed. When I measured it. I found the 6.25" nose rocker curves pretty much past mid point to the front foot area with very little tail rocker. The outline curve also pulls tight to the nose from past mid as well.
http://forum.surfermag.com/photopost/data/501/8784PICT0444-med.JPG
Question is… will this “magic board” outline you’ve gonna solve the problem as neither of my two dream boards are totally perfect and I’m trying to pin down a shape for my next balsa vacuum project.These two outlines were my top choices to build next.
If I went EPS with your outline would that solve the paddling issue you’re talking about for an old(50) and chunky(5’8"x195) weekender? Potato chips are no better to me than paddling on a wooden paipo.
Your tail reminds me of the tail bump on my CI flyer. although mine’s a squash versus your pulled-in RP.
whew! I guessed right…thats a good thing cuz the board Im shaping is finished.
Oneula…funny you mentioned the Flyer…I have a traced template of a friends Flyer and I basically tried to mix elements of both that and Berts…but I came out with a more Flyer looking board…its really pulled back and has the hip around the fins…check out the board on right. I compared rockers to my existing ride (to be replaced) by stacking them up and I think I nailed what I wanted to achieve…it was very tedious working with a big block of EPS…making rocker templates, hotwiring foam, making blanks and all that but Im nearing the end of the journey…lucky dogs out there getting good surf…havent had any in about a month!!!
i checked out those pics …
yea the parmentor would definatly draw a line , the bushman sounded sweet , but when i checked out the pic , it looked that little bit to curvy around the middle , it would have the tendancy to either run out of steam if you tried to draw around a long dropping section , or want to come up to the lip to early when you load weight evenly on both feet …
my magic outline is still somewhat subjective to my tastes , and of coarse the rocker needs to harmonise and finish the package …
another factor for my designs is fins . most of my shapes are very fin dependant …
my boards are slippery and flighty , then i use my fin set ups to get control back …
alot of shapers dont pay much attention to fins , so they build more control into the shapes to compensate for what the fins should be doing …
so while you will probably get the feeling of different curves , the whole thing is still subject to a balance of all the other curves and variables …
ive always found it difficult to incorparate new design features that other people want , which theyve picked up from other shapers , because unless you copy the whole package perfectly , just making say an outline change ends up being a bad move coz it doesnt harmonise with the rockers i might normally use …
that board for me works real well from waist high to double head , but there has to be some sort of power at least at the start of the wave …
a note of caution …
that outline is totally ugly if you combine it with a tail flip rocker …
i think the outline of mine is probably a decent up grade to either of the boards you showed , but still subject to the waves you normally ride …
i have 4 small wave short boards at the moment , all of which go really well depending if the waves are flat and fast, flat and slow, short and sucky,or fast,long and sucky …
so i really couldnt say with any confidence that its an improvement unless i had way more information …
heres a variation of the same outline that may help you
6’-7 x 20 7/8 …
and another , 6’-2" x 21 , variations of my favourite , but for different sized guys this 6’-2" was for a 200 lb 5’-7" guy still in his 20s tho …
it was still borderline area for his weight , but he had youth on his side …
it all depends on what waves you want to ride as to what i would suggest …
eps will help somewhat with paddling , but its more a case of the right amount of area for your weight , if you choose a board with not enough area or want more paddle for the same area , then you look at reduced rocker , lower volume rails for better release …
i know it sounds like a paradox to improve paddle power by reducing rail volume …
but by reducing rail volume you cut down on the low speed drag caused as the water wraps ugly soft thick rails ,
i know this is probably a little off topic , but im currently riding 1 7/8 with a concave deck in my favourite small wave shorty , i want to build 1" thick just to prove the point , that you dont need volume , for paddle power …
either way 2 1/2 is more than enough , if its not enough then your not running enough area for your weight …
a potato chip will only feel like a potato chip if its to narrow …
regards
BERT
Thanks Bert
Really enlightening for me…
Thin and wide is really opposite of the track I’ve been thinking for most of my surf life.
I’ve always been a fan and proponent of the Barry Kanaiaupuni world of rocketship boards, thick and narrow especially in the tail. Most of my boards are 2.8-3.0 in thickness especially in the chest area kind of old school. But being around 50ish I guess I qualify as old school. Kind of why Terry Chungs boards intrigue me as well as Brewers.
I’ve never had success here in Hawaii with wide and thin, especially if you are coming around or back door and the whitewater blows up infront or right next to you, wide boards tend to get squirrelly and don’t have the punch to drive around thick explosive white water unless the boards real short. But again it could be the rail/rocker profile as you indicate… But I’ve used straight and curved rail lines. Going 20-22 wide seems a little extreme for Hawaii for a board under 7’6" or 8’ but what would I know as I’m just a design grem.
Here’s a couple other outline/shapes I’m also considering:
A 6’8" with a similar pulled in nose and bump tail like your boards
Another Vincente 6’ that Surfgear has lying around way too small for me though but similar outline to what you’re showing maybe pull in the nose more.
I’ll take my boards to Surfgear and see what we can come up with. I’d like my next project to be a “all around lifer board” as with these materials I think you need to think that way than the typical “Ill it away in a couple of years” mentality. Love how all this is turning out… A favorite board you can have to follow you through life without breaking down…
" i know this is probably a little off topic , but im currently riding 1 7/8 with a concave deck in my favourite small wave shorty , i want to build 1" thick just to prove the point , that you dont need volume , for paddle power …
either way 2 1/2 is more than enough , if its not enough then your not running enough area for your weight … " - B. Burger
Mr. Burger, or anyone for that matter, are there any fast and dirty area / weight formulas for easy paddling?
i normally have a scale i use which changes for every 2.5 kg of body weight , but that works in conjunction with the rockers i use …
lowering nose entry so the flat carries further forward also helps if you dont want to add width …
i dropped a board off on the weekend to a guy down the coast , im mid 30s hes mid 50s , i was on a 6’-6" he was on a 6’-9" with reduced nose entry , he was paddling circles around me and out hassled me for every wave we both paddled for …
this is it here , 6’-9" x 23 x 2 3/8 , he was sitting out behind the longboarders and out hassling them ,so that made me feel a bit better , i had to go find another peak , rather than deal with the shame of being out hassled by a guy 20 years older than me …
this is also concaved in the deck , so it has reduced volume not visable in the photo …
its pretty much a stolen longboard rocker with the nose tweaked , was watching some pretty good small wave surfing going on , im almost thinking i want one myself …
regards
BERT
Meecrafty,I was wondering how your board turned out. Also what is the rocker like that you ended up using. Thanks Todd
hey todd check this link for an update
http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=203920#203920
the outline is a hybrid of BBs and a CI Flyer…I didnt want too much projection loss so i moderated the outline curve in the center of the board…by accident i ended up with more rocker than planned cuz in a last ditch attempt to press the deck skin i added too much weight w/o a rocker bed (it was a murphy day)…so i ended up with about 2.25 tail rocker…the good news is that the rocker is very smooth and i really like that…the board specs are 6’4x19.75x2.3x6lb. The bottom line for me is this…i’ve got a board thats as loose as anything i’ve owned but it responds and accelerates twice as fast…so semi-closeout sections that were hard to make b4 are now easy to make…and then there’s the speed between maneuvers…combos are much easier…and yeah the board feels wider but i say so what…look how fast im going!!!
What is being marketed/sold to the masses is just inadequate…there’s a fairly recent issue of surfing/surfer “the shaper of the year” issue…cover boy doing his big air on a micro-chip…very impressive photo…i could see how that would influence buying decisions…inside is another more impressive shot same surfer about 10 feet above the wave…just huge air…impossible really…then i noticed the skeedoo’s (PWC) trail…YEAH I COULD DO THAT TOO IF I WAS BEING TOWED 20MPH ALONG THE WAVE’S FACE…then you go to your local BB and see everyone struggling on their $500 disposable chip…what a con…
some pics of the stick…
