S-glass vs. E-glass

General Discussion
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the thicker the sandwich , the further appart the load bearing skins…but on the downside more stiffness ,which affects board performance…i actually dont use divinicell ,i use balsa as a sandwich material , by itself it has better compression strength than the cell structure of pvc foam and has the ability to transfer energy faster than any other composite sandwich material…also has a fast memory and the ability to bend way further before breaking ,thats why my snap ratios are so low coz my boards have stiffness and quick response from the wood and when under enormous load have the ability to bend further than any other existing board thus helping them to absorb massive impacts…you can actually put them on the ground deck down and use them like a trampoline …im toying with idea of franchising this contruction technique now…one reason is ive been doing them for 15 years or so and have the system totally down pat…also its extremeley hard to produce volumes of boards and keep the quality high ,but with a franchise set up you get lots of small manufacturers ,who can keep a better handle on quality and have the credibility of being locally made,also its extremley important when some one buys your board that they can get after sales service with repairs and advice…which is one problem ive been having when exporting is the customers are having trouble finding a good repairer…so repairs would be part of the package…another reason is i have pro longboarders and pro shortboarders who want them but i cant look after everybody ,i currently have an 8 month waiting list…and so any exposure would be pointless ,if i could somehow farm out the production boards it would allow me to concentrate on the pros and build the franchise concept further , by the leverage you would get from there results ,because winning is a formality on these boards ,weve had 4 open australian longboard national titles in the last 4 years ,and in 2003 took 7 out of 9 west coast longboard titles , we coulda had more but didnt have guys competing in the other 2 divisions…this franchise concept has been in my mind for a few years ,but i wondered where you could find guys who were interested in being a franchisee ,since ive been hanging out at swaylocks i think i have an idea now…so if theres any longtime craftsmen out there who are looking for a new direction with a proven formula and want to make easier money than they do now …also i was thinking that everyone paid a percentage for advertizing and r&d so the product always gets media and you can afford a pro or two …plus each franchisee would be responsible for local distribution and sales in his area and any potential young up and coming surfers to give deals to would be the source from which you drew world wide to find new teamriders to put on tour if they were good enough…

ok so at this stage its all just ideas it may be just a pipedream ,or could it be a reality what do you guys think ? is it doable?..

i really dont wanna go the surftech way …i think its possible to build something with soul and local credibilty plus have the local link in a global network…and have your customers well supported ,so when a guy picks up a mag and sees pros on boards he rides it gives him pride knowing that those boards get made down the road not in a chinese sweat shop…and that when he needs advice or a repair he can go straight to the man who built it ,instead of bimbo behind the shop counter without a clue…

anyone with ideas on what the next step would be???

ok see what happens

regards

BERT

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Divinycel is the correct spelling (we all got it wrong) but we all know the product regardless the spelling. H-80 is the one I’ve used. Seemed to be the best overall. Bert is exactly right on the skin thickness. Everytime you double skin thickness you increase stiffness by 8 times and pretty much compression strength as well. Coring the skin adds to this dramatically. This is basic composite engineering 101 stuff. Interestingly repacing one layer of 6 oz. glass with one layer 6 oz carbon increases stiffness times 9. Again as Bert said the ride changes when you introduce stiffness which is not nessesarally a bad thing. You just need to alter the shape to provide for that.

I have used balsa core as well and the stuff is really strong. The grain in balsa is used vertically in most core material which makes for very hard compressive strength. Bert, what thickness are you able to get the stuff in? I’ve only seen it down to about 3/8" which is a bit heavy for surfboards. By the way Baltech is the name of the company in the US that has this material in case anyone wants to web search.

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Our local surf kayak builder/materials guru likes 1/8 inch Airex, which he says is more flexible than divinycel, but also more expensive. This seems like one of those endeavors which would require some pretty precise machining. What do you do, inset the compression panel in the deck? Or just lay it on top and shape it later? As for the Surftechs, they are a divinycel construction, and I’ve snapped two. I’ll try to attach a picture. The board was stiff, but about the fastest thing I’ve ever surfed. I think the lack of a stringer is the fatal flaw. Anyway, the divinycel wraps around the bottom too. The interior glass was very thin, maybe 2oz?

Bert, it seems that whenever you let things out of your control, things can get out of your control. Franchising might work, but you could also adjust your pricing structure to reflect the higher quality work, using your waiting list as an indicator for the demand.

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Airex is nice stuff. A lot more flexible for bending around curves than divinycel. It does, perhaps, fit in better with the kayak crowd though. They are mostly concerned with impact strength. Their resins have very high elongation (above6%) and they tend to use materials that match that, which Airex would do.

I agree with Peter on Bert’s franchaise idea. A similar tact was tried by Gary Young from Hawaii with bamboo. Unfortunatly, he just ended up in court for years and never got a thing out of it. There is nothing harder to sell that technology. People prefer to steal it.

I don’t, however, agree that the absence of a stringer is the flaw in Surftech. My feeling is that if there is any weakness, it has to do with rail seaming and a shear issue between the deck and bottom. Having said that, they are still far stronger than a polyester board of equal weight.

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dont go ford ,go ferrari…?? seems a shame to not let the guy off the street experience the magic of these boards… plus they really belong in the high performance realm ,but why would i give them to pros when i cant make enough boards for full paying customers anyway ,im really not keen on expanding my production in house coz of staff dramas , and all the hassles that go with it ( been there life is much better this way).

shall i just be content with being the ferrari or the stratavarius of surfboards???

greg 1/16th …the key to a strong board is flex… a rigid board will snap easier than a board that flexes and absorbs impact…the surftechs dont have a problem with shear coz they dont flex ,there is no shear load ,there problem is rigidity…

i was hoping someone had some pearls of wisdom to solve my problems…

regards

BERT

ps maybe i dont recognise the pearls…

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I’ve seen Surfechs split at the seam. That’s the reason I figured there was a shear issue. I’ve also seen 45¼ splits on the deck rail which indicated to me a biaxial fabric was being incorperated. Perhaps that’s new.

After living life in the fast lane myself, I did find contentment in making fewer high quality boards with just a couple real craftsmen. I think that may be the pearl your not recognizing.

As you indicated, the pros expect to get everything free and why work your ass off for those wages? I’ve seen pro’s who are making six figures winning contests on boards of mine that they got used from friends garages. But pay for a new one? No way! As board builders we are treated to this kind of disrespect daily.

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So what’s the motivation to provide pros with free boards? Higher sales from the public? How many boards would you have to make to pay for the free ones that the pro abuses? Then you’re stuck trying to make the jump to clothing magnate, since that’s an acceptable way of taking advantage of cheap foreign labor. If Bert makes a better mousetrap, there are always people who will buy and appreciate high quality mousetraps rather than the cheap stuff. Greg’s quote about pros using his boards from their bro’s garages is telling. They know quality equipment, they just don’t value it in a normal sense—they’re too used to having things given to them for free, even if that means from a friend.

It also seems to me that there would be a certain satisfaction in NOT supplying equipment to spoiled pros. To be honest, I can hardly read the mainstream surf mags anymore, bent as they are on sporting endless batches of wannabees to Indo boat trips. It’s the same with shoes, I’ll never buy Nikes because I don’t want to pay triple for the privilege of watching Tiger Woods being a poor sport with money redirected from me to him, via the shoes. I used to think that professional surfing was useful in the sense that it provided sufficient design feedback to pay for the drawbacks. But where did S glass come from? The military. Same with most of the other stuff we use to ride waves, including neoprene. So your tax dollars have done more for your ride than professional surfers.

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Gotta take the good with the bad. A “pro” is only good for you IF he is maketable and in the public eye. If you as a shaper get lucky and sponsor some kid with potential and that kid turns out to be Tom Curren that is worth its weight in gold as far as advertising. Im not saying that Merrick cant shape BUT if he didnt have Curren riding for him I doubt he would be anywhere near as succesfull as he is now.

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Quote:
i have more tests but these are the most relevant to this discussion.

so from the above tests you can see s glass is 30 % stronger till breaking point …

and 10% stronger till bending point.so in reality its 10% stiffer 30% stronger…

hope that clarifies it

regards

BERT

Bert,

Thanks for sharing your research. It was very informative for some of the projects I’m working on. I was wondering if you had done any research on liveliness of materials. This probably relates to stiffness. I find that carbon fiber is too fast of a response, e-glass seems about right, and I haven’t tried s-glass yet.

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There’s not much business sense in franchising something that requires lots of highly skilled labor. The human training costs are too high. If you can set it up so that the local expert doesn’t need to be trained for too long, it may be worth it. Something like licensing a set of CAD programs for cutting down the balsa…then a licensee can create your shapes with any reasonable board building skills, they will have the advantage of being YOUR shapes and construction techniques, etc. Someone in Northern California could build a bert burger special.

The first step is developing the process that allows any joe schmoe shaper to follow the steps, easily, and make a product that is indistinguishable from yours. Then, test it out with a second shaper, and see if he can make your boards as well as you can. And go from there.

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theres a lot of valid points in there…

i just dono anymore???

i can honestly say that for the last few years my life has been so good ,stress free and fun its unbeleivable…

i went from having a full production out fit and all the stress that came with it …to a small business with 2 staff …

everyone thought i was crazy because of the massive potential of the bussiness ,but they didnt have to live it day and night…alot of crew dont realise what demands a full scale business puts on someone…for once in my life i wanted someone else to be responsible…

now with the two guys i have we all just cruise …some times we dont even talk just a quick hi …we all just roll in when we feel like work steady someone drifts off for a surf at lunch or mid afternoon if its average ,we all know what we have to do and it just gets done ,if the surf is smokin then we all go together…

so my quality of life now is magic, spend heaps of time with the kids, my mrs loves me again and never miss a good day of surf …

and from a work point of veiw ,to get a board out of me you either need heaps of cash or credibilty…

so what else do i want out of life???

maybe im driven by ego and want recognition??

or im still coming to terms with my decision to scale down my bussiness??

i just get a feeling like i still want more …but i know im at the point where something else will suffer if i do take on another major project…i sorta feel like i want a world champ on my boards ,but i dont want to deal with hollywood and all the hype that goes with it , somehow i feel i cut it short before it got there,but on the other hand i feel i woke up a little ealier and started enjoying life at a younger age ,

older guys keep saying ive done the right thing…and when i listen to the stories of the old boys they never talk about the money they made or the furniture they brought ,its always stories about who they knew and the experiences they had and the places they traveled and the waves they surfed …

i need to feel comfortable with whatever direction i take and stop saying "but what if "

regards the where to go from here

BERT

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“shall i just be content with being the ferrari or the stratavarius of surfboards???”

...You can be Ferrari, I'm claiming Stradavarius...

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If day to day life is smooth and stress free…

there’s heaps of time for the mrs and the kids…

you drop it to go surfing when it is smokin…

the bills are getting paid…

sounds good to me. Where do I sign up for that life…

Some things are just not made to franchise. One of my inventions (totally non-surf related) is the envy of my colleagues. It is hard as heck to build, requires tons of skilled human labor. Only one other group does it decently, after I trained them a lot. Franchising it is a royal pain, and I am more or less not applying myself to doing that. My biggest mistake was even trying to franchise it in the first place. It is plenty good enough for me, and when I invent something easy for others to use, it is time to franchise…but when I have to spend session after session training someone to do something highly skilled…my days waste away, and I get nothing done. And the worst thing is, that you literally throw away TONS of your time if one of your trainees moves on.

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Bert, I think you are onto a good thing, a really good thing.

To have a limited production of specialised products is much more advantageous than having to make a million pieces of crap to make a dollar on each. If you need affirmation of your lifestyle, you get lots of pats on the back here. If your ego does want to expand your ideas, it’s your choice.

I’d stick with the new lifestyle you’ve chosen. If the work starts to overpower you, charge more. Find the balance. Sounds like you’re catching more waves than most of us anyway, lucky bastard!

Greg.

ps. Is Paul Donda still making boards over there somewhere?

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Bert Burger

you are one lucky bastard to have what you have and live where you do.

I hope you thank your Maker all day everyday…

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bert

i’m w/ wildy…you’re onto a really good thing…look at your kids

when they’re asleep…has nothing to do w/ performance or accomplishment.

your family are the “pro’s”…they show the world who bert is…each wave

you ride is a solid gold endorsement.

johnny

     (just one of the 'old boys' who never talks about "the money .....

                                                                                   or the furniture"
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paul jensen the stradavarius of surfboards…

bert burger’s sunova the ferrari of surfboards…

i’ll go with that plan…you truly produce masterpeices …

im touched with those responses guys ,looks like a unanimous opinion there…

wildy…im currently charging from 950 aud for a 6’ board but i could put it up again i suppose ,it kinda feels morally wrong to charge so much…?..

i haven’t seen donda for a few years now he had a shop in carnarvon but last i heard he sold it and moved on but i dont know where …

i hold paul donda in high regard ,i never seen anyone ride norwest barrels better than him …he takes off deeper than anyone and comes out…the guy is walking scar tissue obviously from the ones he didnt come out of ,gettin cheese grated over that razor sharp coral…

actually i did see him about a year ago at a friends funeral but i didnt get a chance to talk to him…

yea guys i think i do have it good , why make things more complicated than they need to be , i just got back from a 4 day surf trip and some contest shmoozing ,had a lot of positive experiences …we had a surfer award night over here and a heap of shapers were recognised for there contributions to the surfboard industry …interestingly a few shapers who were mentioned were no shows ,all of them to busy to attend , while the rest of us had fun socialising…

grass hopper your so right i really should be thanking my maker , been a little slack in that department lately ,

ok thanks guys i really appreciate the advice …it helps me enormously and satisfies me that i did make the right decision to put life and family first …in fact im quite happy to hang like this for a while and when the kids grow up there quite welcome to join me and maybe make something happen with all there energy and enthusiasm ,and my 30 years of experience ( by then ) will be behind them…

regards

BERT

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A long time ago I got some figure from an independent study that was posted in an aerospace magazine:

Tensile ksi - Modulous of elasticity - Density - Elongation %

E-Glas: 500 - 10.5 - 15.9 - 4.8

S-Glas: 600 - 12.5 - 15.6 - 5.4

Kevlar: 400 - 19.0 - 90 - 2.4

Carbon: 470 - 33.0 - 108 - 1.4

Ortho: 9 - 0.59 - 74 - 2

Iso: 9.5 - 0.52 - 73 - 1.4

Vinylester: 11.5 - 0.40 - 69 - 4.5

Epoxy: 10to20 - 0.4to0.8 - 74to77 - 4to7.5

Sorry not sure how to make things line up so it is easier to read.

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Bert,

Perhaps what you need is a biz partner you can trust.

You…CRO…Chief Research(& development) Officer…VP of R&D.

Partner…CFO…Chief Franchise Officer…VP of franchise operations.

May be less stressful than wearing all the hats.

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interesting stuff