Sandwich wood lamination - Please help

I would appreciate any pointers to the following questions:

  1. Appropriate thickness of wood veneer to increase structural strength. Assuming fiber glass epoxy + wood + fiber glass epoxy sandwich

  2. Do the wood laminates overlap over the rails?

  3. If yes to 2 I guess I have to mask the board to make sure it overlaps but have a clean tuck rail line. If the wood does not overlap then;

  4. how do I make it attach seamless withouT any foam showing up

  5. what is the best veneer to use. Have heard on this forum someone used paper based and bubbles showed up

  6. how do you get the clean look on the rails when supposedly I would have to do some release cuts to bend the wood without splitting or cracking

Many thanks for any help, advice, or direction to where the answer can be find.

WP

Just like building furniture.

Check out Wood Ogres tread he has a write up on hollow rails.

 

Thank you for the suggestion but it does not answer any of my questions.

Just like building furniture? Wood Ogre is a master craftsman with quite an investment in equipment.

Do your rails in Solid balsawood and skin the deck and bottom with basawood veneer. Vacuum bag with 7hgs for 6 hours.

hey pecker. i suggest making one with high density foams first. like corecell or divynecell. or maybe shape a few in poly first. these boards are overated imo. ive made around 50 or so the ones worth keeping were made so heavy as that you may as well use poly. light one fall apart and the ones that use 2 pac as a finish may as well just be tossed out before you get it home. no one will want to fix them when they fil up with water. i think the boards need nice thick skins of about 3 to 4 mm of a decent waterproof wood like cedar . cedar rails and at least 4 oz glass under neath the skins and a 4/6 deck and 6 oz bottom. it wi be the weight of a decently glassed poyester board.

i beileve in the materials but not the current methods to achieve lightness.

that is wankery IMO

Silly I see know credibility in anything you have said in your post. To do 50 or so and not be able to figure it out puts you right up there with the world class hacks.! Oh Im sorry Im not allowed to slam anyone on Sways!!!!

If you want a really nice hard tucked under edge, it may not be easy wrapping the skins around the rails. The wood doesn’t like making that transition from flat to hard edge. You can make it close then add the edge when you glass the board, or add a little more wood to the rail to make a nice hard edge before you glass it.

You can use 1/16" balsa with 2 or 4 oz glass under and wrap that around the rails. There may be a few spots that may need to be patched, but you can make the patches and it will look fine. We’ve do the layer of glass and balsa as a single step and I think that makes it a little more flexible than a premade skin. We do one side at a time, starting with the bottom, clean up the edge a little then do the other side. It helps to have more hands around when you bag the board to make sure the skins wrap around the blank nice and clean. That will save you a lot of fixing work. 1/8" balsa will make a strong skin, but doesn’t wrap around the rails as easy. I don’t worry about the weight, but you can make a very light board this way. I prefer durability over super light, and I’m too cheap to buy corecell for the skins. I have 1/8" balsa over PU foam compsands that are very strong. They don’t get pressure dings and I’ve slammed them pretty hard, your body will get bruised but there won’t be a pressure ding. I think these will last the rest of my surfing life.

We’ve made boards like this with extra light eps cores and no stringers. The rails are very strong when you wrap the skin around. It may be a little stiff for some people, but I’m old school, so I like stiff boards, and I don’t mind boards that weight the same as older poly boards.

It’s also much faster to make the board this way versus doing the solid wood rails and not wrapping the skins around. You just shape the blank, then skin it, then make a few patches and glass the board. We’ve done patches with super glue, and that dries really fast, so you can make the fixes really fast, then glass the board. With the layer of glass under the wood, you can do the outer layer of glass with UV poly resin. It will be a lot faster to dry, easier to sand and get a nice finish.

We’ve made boards with all kinds of thin veneer sheets even the paper backed sheets. These will split and fold up along the rail line if you don’t do relief cuts. You’ll need some craft paper to make a copy of the skin then just figure out where the relief cuts need to go. After you make the copy, transfer that shape to the veneer and make the cuts. I would use 4oz glass under the veneer because it is nor like using balsa. Balsa will combine with the resin and glass and create a strong composite skin. The thin veneers don’t seem to do that, maybe because they are too thin (usually 1/42").  

Silly’s methods are very precise, but if you don’t work the way he does, the corecell can end up soaking up the resin, and make the board heavy. He’s posted his technique on youtube under compsand. He’s got it all figured out.

hey you are right "wood_ogre" your thread on that fish proves it 

I have done 3 HWS and all of them so far have surfed great and are more durable than any of my foam boards. The little extra weight is the cost of the feel and look of "real wood" under your feet.  

“Silly I see know credibility in anything you have said in your post. To
do 50 or so and not be able to figure it out puts you right up there
with the world class hacks.! Oh Im sorry Im not allowed to slam anyone
on Sways!!!”

 

now how am i suposed to respond to that?

answer

i have figured it out. i fix other types of sandwhich boards that others have made

most young groms cant afford the work

the boards are bullshit for kids with paper runs. solidly glassed poly are a better option IMO

they can fix the dings themselves with a the jar of resin you pour of your drum just like i did when i was a kid

its all about the groms imo not old fat kooks. they should move aside and let the kids have a turn

 

i never had any credability anyway and i dont actually want it or care if it means i have to bullshit to gain/retain it

 

 

a grom can bring his poly and 15 bucks and 10 minutes later and some uv res, hes on his bike back to the best day of the year. instead of sitting on the shore watching in sadness with his rooted wanktech.

like i said i believe in the materials i just think that wankery involved in the quest for lightness makes the end user SUFFER and gives the contstruction a BAD NAME

btw i love your work ogre

“Silly” has passed on some great info on the web that has really helped me in composite board building.There are alot of great materials out there to build boards with,you have to find what fits you the best material wise then apply that to your favorite shape.I personally am over the whole look at my pretty wood board that looks and rides like a coffee table,yes it’s a surfboard but you have to be carefull with it,the inside is not waterproof,but yet they are ridden in the water near rocks and over reefs etc.Ever drop your board in the parking lot on the way to the water on a good day?It sucks,you try to snag a mini session anyway but the hole time your worrying about all the water your board is soaking in so you leave overhead glassy barrels early.The right  materials for board building are there I just have yet to here of anyone combining them in the propper manor,maybe those that have don’t want to tell the world.I’d rather build ugly boards in a timely fashion that ride great and are tough instead of taking forever to build a pretty board that rides like a one legged hooker.Not trying to discourage you or anyone else,but ask yourself,what do you really want to build,a coffee table or a surfboard?

hey woodpecker

jesus is spreading the word…

you can still go high density foam, if you dont want to worry about your board soaking up water. plan on thinner [2mm] hd foam skins and a thinner board though.

if you do go the wood road, silly does give very sensible advise

mook found out bamboo suck water just as easily!

1] at least 2mills balsa or 0.6mm veneer for shortboards

2] yes they overlap

3] yes, so, build rails in 2 parts, first attach first half, attach skins, clean up, attach final part

4] like i described

5] best is subjective… tell us what you want to do… bamboo is real fuckking stiff, hard to shape though. balsa can be stiff too, but can easily be shaped… for other veneers, i guess they are all hard, since they are all wood too. what do you want to make?

6] you always get good looks ! the relief cuts are on the inside, not outside. use foam on the rails, xps, blue. paint over them.

write more about what you want…

or do a double baggin procedure for a glass lamination over a stringerless eps blank…

cheers

wouter

if you want a pretty wood board that last long time. glass it heavy and use a polyester finish coat. take your time with the woodwork.

if you want a light ugly board like a surftech.  glass it light and finish it with a heavy duty acrylic like surftech

avoid bagging laminates there is almost zero weight savings and the lam will pin hole

there is no advantage bagging laminates on a surfboard.

2 pac is unsuitable finish as it must be repaired with a 2 pac finish, for reasonable cosmetics. no one wants to set up spray gear and use toxic 2 pac for a 15 dollar ding repair. if you sell boards to teenagers with 2 pac finish u are basically pretty ignorant of customer needs

i prefer the ride of polys in DOH surf btw . i still ride the epoxys when its tiny

how about 5mm of cedar 4 oz under double 6 oz over. can still get a hole in it!

the future of epoxy is CDD IMO .

silly

that pin hole air apparantly can be overcome with a really HOTcoat, that fills up the pin, but then again, i havent done it yet

i am going try double bagging, and then finish with kwik kick epoxy, accelarated with x-55, so it will be hard in no time…

if i feel like it, just more mind projects, the basement is too full as is, and i dont have time to get anything done right now…

cheers

ps woodpecker, good luck on the gloss look

if you want these boards to work think about improving core

 

 

Look on the WMD compsand thread.  Lots of good info there. Lots of ways to build boards on here.  Beware of wankers with opinions.  Build what you want to build.

beware of opinions with a pricelist

Finally I went for the XPS and epoxy. It was a good call not just start with the veneer which can be a challenge. The vacuum bagging process was not easy, needless to say I burned a hoover.

I must thank everyone who participated for the tips and recommendations. 

Very proud with the final product. Check it out in youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYDvPic42dQ

I finally was able to ride it and something that I can give back to the forum is how well a double to V works. The double provides drive since the middle comes into the water like a keel. But on the other hand it can change from rail to rail on a dime (the board is 18" wide). In summary great control even for a board that is only 4ft 6", with drive and looseness. I am still in awe.

Thank you everyone. I learned a lot from this board and I am already thinking about the next. Now I got the shaping bug in me…

Finally I went for the XPS and epoxy. It was a good call not just start with the veneer which can be a challenge. The vacuum bagging process was not easy, needless to say I burned a hoover.

I must thank everyone who participated for the tips and recommendations. 

Very proud with the final product. Check it out in youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYDvPic42dQ

I finally was able to ride it and something that I can give back to the forum is how well a double to V works. The double provides drive since the middle comes into the water like a keel. But on the other hand it can change from rail to rail on a dime (the board is 18" wide). In summary great control even for a board that is only 4ft 6", with drive and looseness. I am still in awe.

Thank you everyone. I learned a lot from this board and I am already thinking about the next. Now I got the shaping bug in me…