I am making Alaia boards from wood that I can get as cheap as possible in Socal (free is always best). This includes poplar and pine, which soak up water like crazy. I am trying to find a way to avoid glassing these cheap wood alaias, both for environmental and board flex reasons. I have heard of all kinds of funky sealing combinations, including the linseed oil, gum turpentine and bees wax combo Tom Wegener uses on his Alaias. I have heard of using Tung oil, spar varnish and West Systems epoxy. Does anyone know how I can keep the ocean from ruining my porous wood alaias? I think this information would be helpful to anyone making a non-glassed wood board with less-than-optimal wood.
Boat builders figured it out a long time ago that the best way to finish wood boats is Epoxy and varnish. I don’t care what Tom Wegener uses on his Alaias ! Funky finishes dont make the grade for wood boards. I have made one solid wood balsa board a couple chambered boards and two hallow boards and a bunch of boats. I would never make a solid board again or a chambered board. A hallow wood board is a much beter use of wood. Why not try alaia using Roys construction method and seal it with unwaxed shellac fallowed by three coats of epoxy and four or so coats of marine varnish. You will be making something that has long term value and could be around for generations. The linseed oil ,turpentine and bees wax finish has been around a long time I have used it often in wood turning and some low abuse high end furniture for over45 years and love the way it looks but it is not a good working finish . The woods you are talking about are not less than Optimal, they are good woods for making wood boards but they really need a good finish to protect them from water. Wood_Ogre PS I know that the Hawaiians would have used epoxy and varnish if they had it !
I’m researching a similar subject my self, from my limited undersatnding alaia are only 3/4" - 1" and about 6-8 lnog and 16" wide thick so I think the hollow construction is abit over the top for something that is really just a couple of planks, now if your talking Olo then yer. When I made my first hollow it took 2 months, now I bet I can make an alaia in a couple of days.
As for finishess, Wally used to use Kauria nut oil, most recomend boiled linseed oil or danish oil with minral spirits , but there was a resent post over at the grain site were someone recommended boiled tung oil (some times know as chinese oil) so for this does seem to be better but I cant locate the boiled variety, only the natural unboiled oil.
I do agree with W-O I’ve made some hollows and I’ve always used epoxy but this board will be different for me and I want a more natural finish, but I’m using cedar so your pine my be diffferent, at the end of the day epoxy is expensive and oil is cheap, if you want cheap cheap then you could even use vegitable oil. the board won’t last a life time but they are quick to make compared to anoy other type of board.
So if you guys don’t want to go the durable route like Wood Ogey said, then I read the post as you don’t care about the durability, or water repellent properties. Just cost of material.
A nice finish that would work for your application is a product called Minwax Antique oil ($12 US). It’s a combination of linseed, tung, and spar varnish. You put on multiple coats with a rag or brush, and wipe it off. After about 4 coats, and then letting it dry you have a oil penetrate finsh, with a slightly harder outside finish. It will harden up that soft wood(slightly), and make the board semi waterproof. Much better than any kind of Poly finish.
here’s my jab at the eco BS. if you were trying to do the environment a favor, you’d make the board to last. And that means having to use dreaded oil based products. making one board is a lot more eco friendly than making one every week because your bees wax, monkey pus and dog vomit finish didn’t repell water, and you have a twisted POS 3/4 in. wood board, that sinks. I know, I know, I know it’s not soul, it’s not what the emperior kings of past would have done…whatever.
I’m using seal’s blood to finish my alaia.
Thanks for the suggestions (except for the seal’s blood - I tried that and it doesn’t work). In truth, I want waterproofing that will last and that doesn’t require constant re-application. The “unwaxed shellac followed by three coats of epoxy and four or so coats of marine varnish” sounds good. How long will it last? What kind or brand of epoxy works best? Thanks.
You really want a resin that soaks into the wood and does not just sit on the surface.
Any low viscosity epoxy will do the job here are a couple I’ve used with wood and I love them.
http://www.eagerplastics.com/5340.htm
http://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/store/sp-115-1kg-pack-p-1544.html
http://www.masepoxies.co.uk/kits.asp
http://www.wessex-resins.com/Wessex_Resins_Products/solvented_epoxy.htm - This is not a very green product having SOLVENTS! But it is really good.
There are many others but these act as a great way to toughen the wood, make it waterproof and act as a basecoat for oils and varnishes.
I use this on all sorts of hard wearing areas that get wet (floors) and it is terrific, never tried it on a board but it is only a matter of time…
http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/products/wood-finishes/wood-oils/osmo-polyx-oil.htm
hope that helps
Rik
Thanks for the suggestions. So far, what I have heard is for a good seal that will last: (1) apply unwaxed shellac (2) apply three coats of low viscosity epoxy that soaks into the wood and (3) apply four coats of marine varnish. Since an Alaia is not hollow, the wood needs to be as waterproof as possible. If this works, I will experiment with more types of soft, porous wood.
Did I tell you I hate seals?
Back when Tom Wegener started making his alaias, I went down to Home Depot and bought a piece of laminated pine. It was 6’ x 17" x 3/4". Cost about $18.00.
I cut out a shape based on the Kaiulani board made by Wally Froiseth. I brushed on a coat of UV poly sanding resin to seal it.
My plan was to use this as a model for future alaia using better quality woods. Now with all the work Tom’s done, I’ll probably use his outlines instead of the one I made.
I’m thinking of laminating a bunch of short thin pieces of Wiliwili for the next one. Probably following Roy’s system for hollow boards. I also want to try making a compsand style alaia. Thin EPS with a door skin or some other veneer, then glassed for strength.
My problem with these boards is the places I surf break far from the beach and are not nice long walls. So I heven’t ridden it. These boards will probably end up as gifts.
I am basing my shapes on some of the Alaia boards at the Bishop museum: http://www2.bishopmuseum.org/ethnologydb/type.asp?type=surfboard Does Tom publish his outlines anywhere? Would love to check them out. I am very curious about different methods, such as lamination, to increase strength and flex. BTW SharkCountry, I am from Hawaii. If I was on the south shore, I would take my Alaia out to Canoes and just have fun. I surf now in the Oxnard/Ventura area and the waves are fine for experimenting with the Alaia. The problem I have is affording expensive hard woods that don’t turn to cement when you put them in the ocean. Hence my post about sealing the wood.
Waikiki would be the best place to try these boards, but with all the people in the water, I’m afraid I’ll hurt someone. I think the Ewa side in the winter will work out, but I’d be really bummed if I wipe out and the board hits the rocks along the shore. Maybe Barbers pt. will be the place.
The pine board I have is based on the old Hawaiian designs. Since it is so thin, the top is nearly flat, but the bottom is rolled to the rails that are about 1/4" and square. The old Hawaiian boards are thicker and have rolled tops and bottoms. I’'ll try to get a shot of my alaia posted for you.
I used the UV resin because it was fast and simple. There are much better ways to do it if you use really good wood, like the earlier posts, but they take more time and effort. For a cheapo pine board UV is good enough.
Wegener’s site has images and videos of his boards. They seem to have more parallel lines than the ancient boards.
Given all the work that wegener and others are putting into finless boards, I’m thinking a compsand that blends an alaia size/shape with a boogey board (especially the rails) would be interesting to try.
I think it’s important to ask if you are only going to shape the board once. If yes, then perhaps an elaborate finish is a good idea. If you want to tweak and refine the shape, then maybe something simple, like oil and varnish or even spray paint might be the way to go.
I’ve been using hemp oil mixed with turpentine for some of my primer coats. Then topped off with either Watco Exterior Oil or some sort of spar varnish (usually a tung oil varnish). Linseed oil would be cheaper than Canadian hemp oil, but I go with the hemp oil to support the hemp industry.
I’ve noticed in recent threads that some people slop on the oil too fast. The don’t allow enough time between coats for the oil to polymerize. Follow the directions on the can of whatever your are using. Here’s a Wiki thread that covers the subject of drying oil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drying_oil
quote -
"here’s my jab at the eco BS. if you were trying to do the environment a favor, you’d make the board to last. And that means having to use dreaded oil based products. making one board is a lot more eco friendly than making one every week because your bees wax, monkey pus and dog vomit finish didn’t repell water, and you have a twisted POS 3/4 in. wood board, that sinks. I know, I know, I know it’s not soul, it’s not what the emperior kings of past would have done…whatever. "
hey resinhead, there are plenty of folks making wooden boards with oil finishes that last. just ask tom W how his are holding up. if you do it right it wont fall apart. paulownia doesnt soak up salt water and is strong enough without resin and glass. paulownia coffins that are 2000 years old have been found in china with minimal damage.
last time i rode one, the industry standard for a PU/Poly shortboard was not that durable. When a pro surfer can go through 100 boards a year, it doesnt seem like they are built to last??? epoxy and compsands being a different kettle of fish.
even if the wooden boards do fall apart though- if you are using wood and vegetable oil, you can make as many as you want and still be more eco friendly than if you were using petro products.
there are plenty of reasons people are trying to get away from using epoxy and poly. for me its about avoiding carcinogens and also trying to make a product that is truly sustainable. you can grow a tree over and over and it doesnt create any carbon emmisions or toxic substances, but you can only pull so much oil out of the ground and it takes a lot of energy to turn the oil into a surfboard and leaves us to work with toxins that end up in landfill eventually.
Well the fact that there are still original alaiy around from over a 100 yrs ago would seem to sugest they are durable enough.
here the link to the see tree forum:
http://www.grainsurf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5425&sid=8312d35376dd893eed74ce834595c38b
I was reading up on the old school oil finishes which seem to be as much a bout preservation as fininsh. seems the rule of thum with which ever oil was to apply once an hour of a day, then one a day for a week, then once a week for a month, then once a month for a year. then once a year for the rest of your life.
If you use a true drying oil then it will penitrate deep in to the wood, and form a polymerised outer layer that is waterproof. It will give a finish more akin to a varnish ie you can no feel the grain and it can be buffferd up and shined. Biut it will require more time and effort than epoxy.
Easy there surfinggreen, I wasn’t saying Poly/Pu was green, or that wood boards were no good. I was just stating that if your making a board, make it to last.
The board in question is being made out of cheap pine, not some exotic clear cypress, palowialiaola, Ipa, or teak. if you really wanted to build a board to last, make it out of teak. Try to rot that one out.
Everyone tries to be so green, or at least pretends to be. while poly boards are not the best environment friendly boards, my surfboards last a very long time… like over 25 years long. If someone decides to buy a cheap 4oz glassed pu/pe POS for $400.00 that dents up in 1 week…thats not my fault, thats mis-informed youth. But thats not the point I’m trying to make…i digress.
I think if people used less regular materials in regular life it would benefit the environment more than worrying about 8 oz of epoxy. Let’s start by using less aluminum foil, less paper towels, less toilet paper, less tooth paste, less deodorant…all the things that impact our daily lifes, buy harder rubber tires for your car, change your car oil less often, etc, etc.
Make the wood board to last, don’t make it disposable…that’s my point. Not your product is more green than my product.
I would have chosen Paulownia wood if I could have gotten my hands on it. Wood is surprisingly expensive, especially if you are buying 8’ planks of it. I am building my Alaias in the 6’ to 7’ foot range. I was luncky enough to get some free pine and cheap poplar. But everyone knows that salt water eats this stuff up. I have talked to a few boat builders about using oils and they unanimously feel that this is a temporary solution (if that). You would have to keep re-oiling the board, which is wasteful and a pain in the a$$. What I would love to know is where in Socal to buy/scrounge cheap hard woods that are light, floaty, flexy and waterproof. Do we have something like Paulownia here?
it seems like quite a few in socal are using paulownia.
maybe do a search for some pualownia build threads on swaylocks. im sure i recall some of those being done in SB and Ssn Diego.
hopefully they will be able to put you on to the supplier. good luck
yeah i get what you are saying about making things to last. i went off track a bit there.
with reference to this board being made from pine, maybe it would be better to seal it properly.
it frustrates me when people knock green alternatives without any real evidence because they don’t want to feel bad about using materials that are terrible for the environment. but i see thats not what you are saying.
its great that your boards last over 25 years. it seems sad that the majority of boards out there (not necessarily from builders on swaylocks though) probably won’t last more than 2-3 years. this in-built obsolescence seems to be justified by the performance and lightness argument. it suits the industry just fine, more boards being buckled and broken means more boards being sold. it wasn’t necessarily planned this way as the industry evolved but thats how its panned out. in saying that though, it seems that the majority here on this forum are actively involved in designing boards that last.
using less may seem like the noble thing to do, but its only going to get us so far when petroleum is a finite resource and the popluation is continuing to grow. while it certainly will ease the pressure in the short term, being less bad doest make it good.
like you say its a good start and its great that people are actually thinking about it now. but its not a complete solution.
i totally agree with you that with any product, durability should be one of the most important considerations when designing a product.
Sometimes the best environmental choice is to use up whatever finish you already have in your garage, and the 2nd best choice is to use up whatever is sitting around in someone else’s garage. A few years back I got an almost full gallon of spar varnish for free at a moving sale. I asked the guy how much, and he said I could have it for free if took the rest of the paints and solvents. I was later able to donate the stuff I didn’t want. Waimanu, maybe you could use Craigslist to contact people that are having garage and moving sales. Tell them you’re an artist, and you’re looking for free or cheap paints and varnishes. For some people that half can of varnish is a burden. They don’t need it, and they know they shouldn’t just throw it in the trash.
You might need to add thinner to an old can of varnish if it wasn’t sealed properly. And most likely you will want to strain it. Buy a package of cone strainers in the paint section at the store. You might also want to boost the drying with Japan dryer. It’s science, but it’s not really rocket science. Varnish diluted 50 percent with thinner makes a good sealer coat. Do your finishing before the rainy season starts in November. The instructions on the can of Japan Drier usually refers to using capfull amounts. I don’t use the cap for dispensing. I don’t even like to get that cobalt stuff on my gloves. I use a section of plastic drinking straw like a pipette. Stick the straw in the can, squeeze the top of the straw, and then quickly move the straw over to your varnish mix.